The Halo

Quote (Hiko)

Mature

So's downloading a mod that labels people as fags because they didn't cheat at a video game in order to get pretty hats.

*applauds at Drakim's post count*

I never managed to get any hats in the first place. I'm sure valve will come up with some solid parameters for collecting such items, possibly once you reach a certain points total for each class. And I prefer the achievments for getting weapons rather than the RNG (although, frankly, I probably wouldn't have been able to get some of the high-end gadgets).

Quote (Aurion)

Quote (Hiko)

Mature

So's downloading a mod that labels people as fags because they didn't cheat at a video game in order to get pretty hats.

Even people who -have- the haloz use the skin. It's pretty funny.

Quote (Hiko)

Mature. Also, at Drakim, if they thought Drunken_F00l's brain child was a third party "hacking" application, again, they had a lot of time to voice their opinions and publicly ban the first people to use it.

I was suspicious, then EVERYONE I KNEW started using it. So I used it. Then they 'punished' me with a stupid update and 'haloz' for following the group, and responding to my friends going 'hurr hurr look how many hats I got.' Sorry, 4.5%? I have over 30 idling friends on a regular basis.

It was. It's a third party application that affects the game in some way (in this case, giving you easier access to unlockable weapons) so it's clear as the day cheating.

Valve wouldn't need to voice their opinion anymore about this app than they should need to voice their opinion about aimbots. Both are cheating according to Vavles definition of cheating, which you have to accept in order to play the game.

"Everybody I knew was doing it!"

Everybody you knew should be VAC banned.

Quote ()

It was. It's a third party application that affects the game in some way (in this case, giving you easier access to unlockable weapons) so it's clear as the day cheating.

No. It gives you the same access as being logged in and idling. It does not give you easier access. It saves you memory at best.

Quote (Drakim)

Quote (Hiko)

Mature. Also, at Drakim, if they thought Drunken_F00l's brain child was a third party "hacking" application, again, they had a lot of time to voice their opinions and publicly ban the first people to use it.

I was suspicious, then EVERYONE I KNEW started using it. So I used it. Then they 'punished' me with a stupid update and 'haloz' for following the group, and responding to my friends going 'hurr hurr look how many hats I got.' Sorry, 4.5%? I have over 30 idling friends on a regular basis.

It was. It's a third party application that affects the game in some way (in this case, giving you easier access to unlockable weapons) so it's clear as the day cheating.

Valve wouldn't need to voice their opinion anymore about this app than they should need to voice their opinion about aimbots. Both are cheating according to Vavles definition of cheating, which you have to accept in order to play the game.

"Everybody I knew was doing it!"

Everybody you knew should be VAC banned.

Oh? And shouldn't all the people on idling servers have the same punishment? I know lots of people who wear the haloz and still go on idling servers. It's complete bullshit.

If everybody I knew was VAC banned, that'd be around 100 people off of TF2. Just from -my- friends list. I have 200 friends (200 is the limit), and at least half idle or have idled.

They would also lose a shitload of very loyal customers. People who idled were people who knew enough about the game and apparently cared enough, in a way, to want the stupid hats that should never have been added in the first place. Most of us have bought L4D, all the Half-Life games, or Audiosurf, even, and even now I have a group of 15 or so people who are boycotting TF2. Just playing, that is.

These are also the people that buy nearly nothing but Valve games. Have fun losing money?

Also. Here's my edit. VENT IS A THIRD PARTY PROGRAM
OFU-
BAN THEM, BAN THEM, QUICKLY!!!

They already have your money. They don't give a shit.

Didn't they also say that this only effects like, 4% of the people who have the game?

Key word there is 'have', not 'still play'.

Or do you not have games laying around that you never play anymore? It's like that.

There wouldn't be so much drama if it was 4.5% of the ACTIVE community.

Quote (Knight)

Quote ()

It was. It's a third party application that affects the game in some way (in this case, giving you easier access to unlockable weapons) so it's clear as the day cheating.

No. It gives you the same access as being logged in and idling. It does not give you easier access. It saves you memory at best.

In the same way an aimbot does the same as you aiming with your mouse, only better.

Valve doesn't want people to idle at all, but they can't prevent it. But that sure as hell doesn't mean they should allow people to use a third party application that makes it easier to idle.

It DOES give you easier access to weapons because most people cannot have TF2 running all the time. The very fact that you would bother using the app proves that it's an advantage compared to merely using the game, at some level.

Besides, it wouldn't matter. It's still an third party application that messes with the game in some way. Valve defines this as cheating, even if it's only a third party application that makes it easier to navigate though the menus.

Quote (Twi)

Oh? And shouldn't all the people on idling servers have the same punishment? I know lots of people who wear the haloz and still go on idling servers. It's complete bullshit.

Nope, because they are merely playing the game in a dumb way, not using third party applications. If valve banned this, then what would the ruling be on say, somebody who is AFK for an hour as he makes dinner? He is after all standing still for an hour, possibly getting a weapon. What about somebody who needs a bathroom break for 2 minutes? Are those two minutes cheating by idling?

It's too gray and impossible to define. Third party applications which can run even while you are playing another game, however, is not hard to define as cheating. It goes under the definition of cheating that Valve has been using all these years. And anybody who isn't full of shit knows it's cheating (just as idling is also cheating but unpreventable).

Quote ()

If everybody I knew was VAC banned, that'd be around 100 people off of TF2. Just from -my- friends list. I have 200 friends (200 is the limit), and at least half idle or have idled.

They would also lose a shitload of very loyal customers. People who idled were people who knew enough about the game and apparently cared enough, in a way, to want the stupid hats that should never have been added in the first place. Most of us have bought L4D, all the Half-Life games, or Audiosurf, even, and even now I have a group of 15 or so people who are boycotting TF2. Just playing, that is.

These are also the people that buy nearly nothing but Valve games. Have fun losing money?

Which is probably why Valve didn't VAC ban everybody. But it doesn't mean anything more than that.

Quote ()

Also. Here's my edit. VENT IS A THIRD PARTY PROGRAM
OFU-
BAN THEM, BAN THEM, QUICKLY!!!

Ventrilo doesn't modify TF2 in any way shape or form. It's a phone over the internet.

The idle application gave you unlock weapons much faster than regular play, even idling in a server (since you can't do anything else while doing that), could get you.

Quote ()

In the same way an aimbot does the same as you aiming with your mouse, only better.

Lets have 3 tests.

1. Aimbot vs average user
2. Idle hack vs average user
3. Idle hack vs aim bot

Note that average user probably already has the weapons for his favorite class. In fact, he probably has all weapons he needs from the achievements.

My point is I don't give a damn if we are on an even playing field because the other guy idled by running TF2 day and night, or had the application. It does not ruin my playing experience the way an aimbot does.

Quote ()

Valve doesn't want people to idle at all, but they can't prevent it.

It's called "Making an unlock system that doesn't reward no effort as much as effort." OR "Make unlocking the goddamn hats I actually want faster."

Quote ()

But that sure as hell doesn't mean they should allow people to use a third party application that makes it easier to idle.

I agree. Considering they allow built in macros, they should have a built in application to make idling easier... or I dunno, possibly remove the need for it or something.

Quote ()

It DOES give you easier access to weapons because most people cannot have TF2 running all the time. The very fact that you would bother using the app proves that it's an advantage compared to merely using the game, at some level.

Okay, putting aside that unlock weapons are supposedly balanced against basic ones, hence not giving you an advantage in-game (obv not true at this point in time, but they are trying), it shows that people would rather run a third party application than upgrading/getting another computer capable of playing said games.

Quote ()

Nope, because they are merely playing the game in a dumb way...

Actually they are making a very smart move of not playing the game but still getting shit regardless.

Quote ()

It's too gray and impossible to define. Third party applications which can run even while you are playing another game, however, is not hard to define as cheating. It goes under the definition of cheating that Valve has been using all these years. And anybody who isn't full of shit knows it's cheating (just as idling is also cheating but unpreventable).

Ah, we are at the crust of the problem. Valve's definition of "cheating" is more like a kind of copyright infringement which is achieved by modifying their game with a third party app.

They, of course, have the right to take steps to disencourage/punish this. I don't think anyone disagrees with this.

However... What the masses consider cheating is getting an unfair edge over someone. This does not have to involve a third party, and can easily mean "kicking the guy next to you on LAN in the shins". Idling does not making you better at the game. The same way people wouldn't give a fuck about the menu hax, they wouldn't give a fuck about idling.

In fact, if you disregard the fact that unlocks aren't supposed to be better than normals (which you seem to do for some reason...), then not having access to the idling hack is what makes you handicapped against someone who has, for example, multiple computers.

Quote ()

E. Restrictions.

Except as otherwise permitted under Section 2© with regard to the SDK, you may not, in whole or in part, copy, photocopy, reproduce, translate, reverse engineer, derive source code, modify, disassemble, decompile, create derivative works based on, or remove any proprietary notices or labels from the Steam Software or any software accessed via Steam without the prior consent, in writing, of Valve.

You are entitled to use the Steam Software for your own use, but you are not entitled to: (i) sell, grant a security interest in or transfer reproductions of the Steam Software to other parties in any way, nor to rent, lease or license the Steam Software to others without the prior written consent of Valve; (ii) host or provide matchmaking services for the Steam Software or emulate or redirect the communication protocols used by Valve in any network feature of the Steam Software, through protocol emulation, tunneling, modifying or adding components to the Steam Software, use of a utility program or any other techniques now known or hereafter developed, for any purpose including, but not limited to network play over the Internet, network play utilizing commercial or non-commercial gaming networks or as part of content aggregation networks, without the prior written consent of Valve; or (iii) exploit the Steam Software or any of its parts for any commercial purpose.

This is taken directly from Valves Steam Subscriber Agreement. As you may notice, I bolded the part that I think applies to this. Now, per Drunken_F00l, the person who made the idle program:

Quote (Drunken_F00l)

I made a "fake idle" sort of program. Need some people to try it out:

Do not run it with TF2 open. Close TF2, then run it. Close it before starting TF2.
Link to latest version:
http://www.sourceop.com/downloads/SteamStats.rar

It basically simulates idling in a server. I'd like to know how well it works for people.

If it opens and closes real quick, make sure Steam is running and that you are signed in to Steam friends. If you get a Windows error when trying to start it, make sure you have the Visual C++ 2005 Redistributable package installed. You can get that here:
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details...isplaylang=en...

Notice that he says that the idler simulates idling on a server. What this means is that the program is emulating the communication protocols that Steam uses to tell Steam Could (the program that keeps track of all of your unlockables, saved games and user preferences on the Steam Network so that you can access your account on any computer and still have access to those) that you had been in the actual TF2 game gaining these items.

So, according to the current Subscriber Agreement, the idler is a program that, by using protocol emulation, violates the Subscriber Agreement. Meaning that if you use it, you don't just get a VAC ban, your Steam account is disabled and you lose all of your games you had on it.

Now, here comes the fuzzy part. I've looked high and low for when the current Subscriber Agreement was put into place, but could not find it. The original person who pointed me towards this said that the bit I quoted had always been in the agreement since the start of Steam. I'm unsure if the Subscriber Agreement replaced the License Agreement, but if it did, then what he said was a false statement, since I know for a fact that the Licence Agreement for Steam when installed from a L4D disk bought last year does not match the current Subscriber's Agreement.

So, within the past year the Agreement has been changed. Unfortuantely, I have found nothing saying when this change was made, if the License Agreement is indeed the Subscriber Agreement. If it was within the past three months, I can understand people being hurt by the fact that the rules had changed without them knowing. If it was earlier, however, then the first use , and any subsequent uses, of Drunken_F00l's Idle Tool violated the Subscriber Agreement.

That aside, the Licence Agreement from the year-old L4D installation disk has a part that says "You may not, in whole or in part: copy, photocopy, reproduce, translate, reverse engineer (with the exception of specific circumstances where such act is permitted by law), derive source code, modify, disassemble, decompile, or create derivative works based on [Steam]." Unfortunately, in order for him to get access to the exact coding needed to send the emulated data back to Steam Cloud, I believe that Drunken_F00l would need to have done at least one of those things, most likely deriving source code or "creating derivative works". He may not have, but on the chance that he did, Drunken_F00l at least was violating the License Agreement and should have had his account banned.

As far as Valve's prolonged silence on the topic, I'll just say that not saying anything on the subject does not equal approving it. There could be numerous reasons why they waited so long, like figuring out what exactly the program was doing and how or simply taking that time to hammer out a new Agreement before telling people to stop. The simple fact of the matter is we don't know why they waited so long, only that they did.

Irregardless of how all of this came up, however, Valve did make a poor choice in rewarding those who literally did nothing, but their bad choice shouldn't justify discriminating against those who simply want to wear the hat that's been given to them. It's incredibly hypocritical to take disciplinary action on those who want to customize their character just because those who used the idler to do the same thing were cracked down upon by the company that owns the game.

(Links to original quote sources: Subscriber Agreement, post on SourceOP featuring Drunken_F00l's quote. As for the License Agreement, that's from my CD and I don't have a link to it.)

Quote (Raigingekiexcel)

E. Restrictions.

Except as otherwise permitted under Section 2© with regard to the SDK, you may not, in whole or in part, copy, photocopy, reproduce, translate, reverse engineer, derive source code, modify, disassemble, decompile, create derivative works based on, or remove any proprietary notices or labels from the Steam Software or any software accessed via Steam without the prior consent, in writing, of Valve.

... blah blah blah

My sole argument against this:

Before Drunken_F00l launched SteamStats, he e-mailed Valve.

They said they wouldn't take action against it. Basically, "Hey, nice one! Our random drop system is fucking retarded, we know it, so have fun getting around it and helping others to do the same when we can't wipe our own asses over here!"

Quote (Drakim)

Ventrilo doesn't modify TF2 in any way shape or form. It's a phone over the internet.

The idle application gave you unlock weapons much faster than regular play, even idling in a server (since you can't do anything else while doing that), could get you.

Vent easily allows for griefing, and could give an advantage in some unthinkable way.

Idling also allows zero advantage over other players. No weapon you get should affect gameplay, same goes for hats. It's just a difrent variation, not a better variation.

And, what are you talking about? If I wanted to, I could open up an idle server in a tab. I have TF2 set to run in a window with no border the size of my monitor. I tab out in about two seconds.

EDIT: HAHAHA

double post, because this isn't mine. Yes, I am copy-pasting. Yes, I am tired. But this is the argument from the idlers that got sent to Valve.

Quote (slayerofmuffins)

As you're all no doubt aware, Valve have decided to punish all the idlers by removing their idled weapons.

My question to Valve is why? What is the point in using such heavy handed tactics on such an enormous percentage (4.5% is a misleading representation, since that number includes people who bought the Orange Box and don't play TF2, and people who have stopped playing.) of your playerbase?

Valve always used to be an innovative, widely loved company that was famous for listening to its playerbase. It may still be innovative and widely loved, but I'm sorry - this sort of tactic used to deter idlers sounds like something EA would do. It is ill-thought out and will have few noticeable effects on the number of people idling.

Let me explain why.

Soon after the Spy/Sniper update, there came the release of a famous map - idle. Valve had come up with one of the worst (in terms of incentives) reward granting systems in computer game history - a non discriminatory, perfectly random system. At the time, people only cared about the six new weapons, and eventually Valve caved and gave us back the milestone achievements. But not before we'd all witnessed the server list completely clogged with idling servers... I'm pretty sure everyone on this forum visited one at least once.

Once everyone had got their weapons, attention switched to the hats. The premise was simple - after a couple of months, most people will have at least one hat. Few will have the hat for their preferred class. So people will trade to get the hat they want. It's a good premise, marred by one, obvious flaw. THEY NEVER RELEASED THE DAMN TRADING SYSTEM. And this is where it all fell down. Knowing Valve, the trading system could take many more months to implement - so the people took matters into their own hands. Drunken_F00l created his idle program, which garnered massive attention. Idle servers decreased in numbers until there are now only 3 major ones...all belonging to Drunken_F00l. Instead of trading for the hats they wanted, people would idle in the hope of finding one.

Valve's complete and utter failure in this respect is clear. Up to 10 000 (!!!) people used the idling program. As a percentage of regular TF2 players, this is massive. And it's not even as if Valve was the victim of unforeseen consequences. Any fool could have told them that if they release a perfectly random system, the ingenious community will find a way of doing the least possible for their rewards. With milestone achievements, this was the achievement servers. With the new system, it was the idle program. Valve, recognising their failure and to buy themselves more time, released 21 new hats to ensure that even the most hardcore idlers had no chance of getting near to all the hats. But all this did was attract EVEN MORE people to the idling program.

So, for a few weeks, things were in limbo. The community was split between idlers and holier-than-thou prigs. Valve was clearly in a hole - as shown by this extract from an e mail.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin Walker
Any data we gather from servers can be faked, and would be faked as soon as people worked out what we were using to determine drops. The idle server is essentially "cheating", but they're not able to earn items any faster than someone who's playing during that time, which is something they would be able to do if we added performance related rewards.
In so few lines, Robin succinctly evaluated the entire issue. Valve didn't think through the system before they released it, but they damn well can't unrelease it. In a completely random system, everyone has an equal chance (though idlers get more chances.) In a performance based system, the most efficient farmer wins. At this point, Valve showed a (with hindisght, deceptively) intelligent view on the issue, which I'll summarise.

    * In order to not break our promises and principles (ie, not selling them for money), the fairest way of distributing hats is at random.
    * Everyone has an equal chance to get a hat, but the people who play for longer have more chances. The only way to maximise your chances is to play/idle 24/7.
    * The random system is the lesser of two evils. With this system, people play when they want to play, and idle when they don't. In a performance based system, people would farm until they get what they want (which would harm the community that actually wants to play.)
    * So we won't do anything about it.


But now Valve has broken the stability we had before. They're going to punish people who idle.

But wait! There's a flaw! Now, I'm not going to insult Valve's intelligence by saying they can't differentiate between the idle program and a server. But as Robin Walker said "any data we gather from servers can be faked"

Let me evaluate that. ALL THIS WILL ACHIEVE IS TO FORCE IDLERS TO FREQUENT IDLE SERVERS RATHER THAN USE THE PROGRAM. But... that's even more frustrating for everyone! People who idle can no longer do other things on their computer whilst idling. People who don't idle see their server lists clogged up with idling servers. IT'S A LOSE-LOSE SITUATION.

In summary: Valve, you have released a flawed system, as a result of your own incompetence. Now you are punishing the community for your mistake by forcing idlers to waste CPU resources on running the game to idle and non idlers to wade through seas of idle servers to find a real server.

Valve, you are becoming something you never were. In the past, you only punished hackers - and rightly so. They harmed the community and made the game frustrating. But idling? Idling hurts no one (except, perhaps, Valve's ego). Idling is responding to an incentive. It's like punishing a donkey for moving when you wave a carrot in its face.

The only way I can see Valve defeating idling forever is to put as much effort into detecting idling as they do into detecting hacks. Imagine that. All that effort, for something so ludicrously trivial? Ridiculous - but the only thing they can do, having taken the path of punishment.

Here Valve, I'll give you something for free. How about you eliminate the incentive for idling completely. Make the system so that every 24 hours, the system rolls for every owner of TF2. The percentage chance of receiving a hat would be whatever it is now, skewed to take into account 1 roll per day. There - no need for idling, and you still keep your random system.

Please Valve, don't let pride get in the way of your judgement. No one will think badly of you if you change your mind and opt for a better solution. But I assure you, if you carry on with this ludicrous idea of punishing your community, then your reputation WILL be tarnished. Not a lot, but it would still be damaged. And that would truly be a sad thing to happen.

Thanks for reading.

TL;DR: If you can't be bothered to read, don't bother replying.


P.S. I'm simply going to ignore any posts along the lines of "ha, you lost your hats." Yes, I stand to lose half of my hats. No, it's not that big a deal to me. This thread isn't a "don't take my hats please" thread. I'm concerned with the fact that in doing this Valve are opting for a flawed system, but forcing it through with threats - rather than listening to what the community actually want, like they used to.


Edit: I think this post sums up the situation quite nicely.
Quote:
Originally Posted by daggity View Post
I'm sure glad Valve came up with a terrible solution to a non-existent problem (Idlers), instead of an actual solution to a very annoying problem (Random drop system).
Edit 2: Due to the overwhelmingly positive response here I've emailed this thread to Robin Walker. Let's hope we get a response.

Edit 3: Some new arguments against Valve's measure.

One of the main arguments I've seen for Valve's actions and against the idlers is that the EULA that we agree to to play the game prohibits the use of third party applications, so the warning was there.

This argument is flawed. Firstly, the idler never modified the HL2.exe - it was a seperate program (so it's not a 'hack' as some people have been describing it.) Drunken_F00l used the tools provided in the SDK to make the idler, so it's not even completely third party.
Secondly, there are many third party applications (some of which provide real in game advantages - unlike the idler, and some which are useful but confer no advantage (like the idler.)) I'll list a few here. SAM - this allows you to unlock all the achievements at the click of a button. Giving you ALL the unlocks instantly. HLSS - this allows you to play mp3s over voice comms.
The one I'd most like to focus on is Ventrilo, since this has many parallels with the idler.
Ventrilo, for those of you that don't know, is a private service which allows you to communicate in real time with people connected to the same (privately owned)Ventrilo server as you. The sound quality is far superior to the in game voice comms, and there is usually no delay between speaking and your teammates hearing. The main advantage conferred by Ventrilo is that dead players can carry on talking with their team through Vent, whereas on a Vanilla TF2 server, dead players are muted (so that you can't call out locations of Spies once you've been killed by one, etc.)

Now, why do I mention vent as a parallel to the idler? Well, they're both third party program that allow you to do something already present in game more efficiently.

The idler simulates being connected to a server. You receive items at exactly the same rate as people connected to real TF2 servers, without actually running TF2.

Ventrilo allows you to talk with your teammates more efficiently, (no 1 second delay) without using the in game voice comms.

Now, the summary - by the same logic that says idlers got what they deserved, you could argue that anyone who has used ventrilo in conjunction with TF2 should be muted for a week, and permanently if they ever use it again.

In fact, the argument for banning Ventrilo is stronger than the argument for banning the idler, since Ventrilo confers a tangible ingame advantage (talking to your teammates whilst dead), which the idler doesn't offer - since it is exactly the same as idling on a real server (which is legal). In simpler terms, the idler gives exactly the same benefits as idling in achievement_idle, whereas Vent gives you an advantage over people who use in game voice comms.

So that is why this was unexpected. The EULA clause concerning third party apps has never been applied to any of the many third party apps (except hacks, but the idler was never a hack) - so we should not have been expected to predict Valve's actions concerning the idler.

That is why we should have been given a warning. If Valve suddenly muted everyone who had used Vent, with no prior warning, and threatened to ban them if they ever used Vent again, you'd be shocked, wouldn't you? But I could use exactly the same arguments as the non idlers to point out that, although Valve have never had a stance on Vent before, the EULA clearly states that using it is a bannable offense.

I hope this made sense, and I hope it makes Valve and the non idlers see sense.

He/she makes a very passionate and persuasive argument, there is no arguing that. However, there are a couple of things near the end that I think he/she misunderstands about Valve and its third party policy, especially on the topic of Ventrilo. While there is no doubt that the ability to talk while dead would be a great asset in a game, playing while using Ventrilo gives you no more of an advantage than playing in the same room would. Moreover, what Valve's policy states on third party apps is

Quote (Steam Subscriber Agreement)

"Third Party Content" means software and other content provided by third parties, other than Valve, that is designed to work in conjunction with the Steam Software (e.g. mods of Valve game products).

Ventrilo is a stand-alone communication program that never interacts with Steam in any way, shape or form, whereas the Idle Tool requires you to be logged into Steam so that it can transfer information to Steam Cloud. The Subscriber Agreement never said that only third party apps that modified the core files violated the agreement. Sending fake data also violates the Subscriber Agreement, as it "emulates... the communication protocols used by Valve..." If the line of thought that says that Ventrilo violates the Agreement is taken further, then using an internet browser while playing to look up information on the game violates the Subscriber Agreement, or even having any program other than Steam and any Valve created game running at the same time is a violation, as they are third party (not created by Valve) and running at the same time. The key difference is that these other programs are not designed to do anything with Steam, where the Idle Tool is designed specifically to do things through Steam.

I won't say they don't have any valid points. Quite the contrary, I agree that the completely random rolls are a bad way to distribute items that so many people want. But the fact still stands that the idler is a violation, and not enforcing the Subscriber Agreement now would leave the door open for bigger problems down the road. Really, the main point that I pick up from this post is that Idle servers used to be everywhere, then the Idle tool got rid of them, and now that the tool is illegal they're back again. Regardless of how distasteful wading through a sea of idle servers may be, it's not up to Valve to dictate how people play the game so long as they are abiding by the Agreement(s) associated with them.

As far as your argument against my earlier post, and don't misunderstand this as me being an asshole or anything, but unless you can back that claim up it has no weight in an actual deliberation. For all I know, and again I'm not meaning any offense, you or the person you heard it from (if it wasn't Drunken F00l or a Valve employee) could've come up with that on their own as an argument against Valve's actions. If you could provide a link to where one of the two parties involved said this, I'll gladly accept that knowledge for use in future discussion of the topic, but otherwise I can only see it as hearsay and it'll hold no weight in trying to persuade me (and maybe others who share my view) that Valve was entirely in the wrong and the idlers did nothing wrong.

Just for the record:

http://teamfortress.com/post.php?id=2787

Quote ()

Over the next few days we'll be removing all TF2 items that were earned using external idling applications. We're going to adopt a zero tolerance policy for external applications used to manipulate the persistent item system. Due to us not having a policy in place prior to today, this time we're only removing the items earned through cheating the system.

That pretty much settles that they changed policy, if nothing else. It's beyond me if this is possible without changing the ToS, but I think I can say with a good level of certainty that it isn't.

Quote (Knight)

Just for the record:

http://teamfortress.com/post.php?id=2787

Quote ()

Over the next few days we'll be removing all TF2 items that were earned using external idling applications. We're going to adopt a zero tolerance policy for external applications used to manipulate the persistent item system. Due to us not having a policy in place prior to today, this time we're only removing the items earned through cheating the system.

That pretty much settles that they changed policy, if nothing else. It's beyond me if this is possible without changing the ToS, but I think I can say with a good level of certainty that it isn't.

Retarded said of Vavle, but I guess they simply can't ban such a large part of their player base. But if you just read the various agreements you have to accept in order to play the game, it is clear as day that idling in a server is not cheating, using a voice chat program independent of TF2 is not cheating, but using a third party program which directly affects the game (by simulating it) is complete and utter cheating.

What I am so amazed about is that people aren't giving idlers more shit. Seriously, while you are there playing and earning weapons, they are simply logging in and standing there getting their weapons. Dumb enough. Oh wait, they made an app that makes this assholery easier. Why isn't the community exploding in rage against them? D: Is the community so easily bribed by the prospect of a free lunch?

Quote (Hiko)

If everybody I knew was VAC banned, that'd be around 100 people off of TF2. Just from -my- friends list. I have 200 friends (200 is the limit), and at least half idle or have idled.

So, that'd be 100 less whiny bastards who are butthurt that they fucked up, got called on it, and are now redirecting their rage about being caught fucking up at people who didn't fuck up? Oh no, whatever would the community do without them.

Also, I agree 100% with Drakim. I never really thought I'd see the day, but here it is. Expect hell to freeze over shortly

Quote (Drakim)

Quote (Knight)

Just for the record:

http://teamfortress.com/post.php?id=2787

Quote ()

Over the next few days we'll be removing all TF2 items that were earned using external idling applications. We're going to adopt a zero tolerance policy for external applications used to manipulate the persistent item system. Due to us not having a policy in place prior to today, this time we're only removing the items earned through cheating the system.

That pretty much settles that they changed policy, if nothing else. It's beyond me if this is possible without changing the ToS, but I think I can say with a good level of certainty that it isn't.

Retarded said of Vavle, but I guess they simply can't ban such a large part of their player base. But if you just read the various agreements you have to accept in order to play the game, it is clear as day that idling in a server is not cheating, using a voice chat program independent of TF2 is not cheating, but using a third party program which directly affects the game (by simulating it) is complete and utter cheating.

What I am so amazed about is that people aren't giving idlers more shit. Seriously, while you are there playing and earning weapons, they are simply logging in and standing there getting their weapons. Dumb enough. Oh wait, they made an app that makes this assholery easier. Why isn't the community exploding in rage against them? D: Is the community so easily bribed by the prospect of a free lunch?

Because everyone has gotten over it. We've all come to accept that wearing a halo just makes you an easier target and means you'll likely have some curseword floating over your head, and that it does nothing but make you look like an elitist.

And to Leon... most people who didn't idle didn't even know that the idler existed. Most people, when getting a halo, didn't grin in respect for Valve, thinking that it was what they deserved, but wondered what the eff was going on.

Hey, "whiny bastards" we may be in your eyes, but we're probably some of Valve's most loyal customers and most avid players.

Quote (Hiko)

Hey, "whiny bastards" we may be in your eyes, but we're probably some of Valve's most loyal customers and most avid players.

Do you think there is a single person in existence who seriously thought Valve approved of idling? Even one?

Personally, I have a hard time thinking of people who accepts the terms of agreement to an online game, breaks it, and then proceeds to whine over the punishment, a loyal fan of the game producers.

Quote (Drakim)

Quote (Hiko)

Hey, "whiny bastards" we may be in your eyes, but we're probably some of Valve's most loyal customers and most avid players.

Do you think there is a single person in existence who seriously thought Valve approved of idling? Even one?

Personally, I have a hard time thinking of people who accepts the terms of agreement to an online game, breaks it, and then proceeds to whine over the punishment, a loyal fan of the game producers.

I waited 2-3 months before I started using it. I tried it at first, and I thought it was sketchy. Then once my entire friends list started using it, I figured hey, what the hell. Hadn't heard anything else about it.

Well, to be honest, I'm not sure if I cared that much. Valve had already admitted that they'd screwed up with the drop system, so I thought they wouldn't really give a flying f*** if we (or f00l) found an intelligent way around the issue.

Also, do -you- read the ToS to every game you play? I sure as hell don't. Call me ignorant, but I'm pretty sure that that's not the norm.