The Halo
last edited by
Ok, so I've been on /v/ and the TF2 forums for a while now, and the one thing that jumps out at me is the Halo debate, and how butthurt everyone is over it. So I was wondering: what's RE:RN's opinion on the matter?
last edited by
The Halo debate? As in the classic debate of whether Halo is good or not, or...?
Might ought to fill us in for those of us who haven't been keeping up with it.
Might ought to fill us in for those of us who haven't been keeping up with it.
last edited by
Well, Valve finally cracked down on people that have used idling programs to get items in Team Fortress 2, removing illegally obtained items and rewarding those that didn't with a special Halo hat, known as The Cheater's Lament.
Idlers insist that what they've been doing isn't cheating, and are getting angry with those with Halos, even going so far as to making a mod that replaces the halo with the word FAG, and exclusively targeting/refusing to assist said Halo-wearers. Some have even been banned from servers for it.
Check out the TF2 site for more details.
Idlers insist that what they've been doing isn't cheating, and are getting angry with those with Halos, even going so far as to making a mod that replaces the halo with the word FAG, and exclusively targeting/refusing to assist said Halo-wearers. Some have even been banned from servers for it.
Check out the TF2 site for more details.
last edited by
If the item obtaining is as simple as hacking through the game and getting items other people have to work for (running an external application, as I'm now reading on their site), I'd say the hackers are right to lose their items. In spite of that, though, they have absolutely NO right to get angry at people who are simply wearing a nifty item they got for following the rules (or simply not TRYING to break them) in the first place.
I can understand being mad when you lose your items, or even mad at a person flaunting they didn't to a degree, but discriminating over it? That just makes no sense and reflects really poorly on the player base.
Anyhow, that's just my opinion as a non-TF2 player. XD Griefing at admins for taking your loot is one thing: taking it out on other players is another.
I can understand being mad when you lose your items, or even mad at a person flaunting they didn't to a degree, but discriminating over it? That just makes no sense and reflects really poorly on the player base.
Anyhow, that's just my opinion as a non-TF2 player. XD Griefing at admins for taking your loot is one thing: taking it out on other players is another.
last edited by
Quote (Heat Sonata)
If the item obtaining is as simple as hacking through the game and getting items other people have to work for (running an external application, as I'm now reading on their site), I'd say the hackers are right to lose their items. In spite of that, though, they have absolutely NO right to get angry at people who are simply wearing a nifty item they got for following the rules (or simply not TRYING to break them) in the first place.
I can understand being mad when you lose your items, or even mad at a person flaunting they didn't to a degree, but discriminating over it? That just makes no sense and reflects really poorly on the player base.
Anyhow, that's just my opinion as a non-TF2 player. XD Griefing at admins for taking your loot is one thing: taking it out on other players is another.
Same opinion here. But it's kinda funny how I earned a hat without even having my gaming PC up here, so I probably won't see my halo until Thanksgiving XD. And for all those butthurt hackers/exploiters/idlers: No one cares about you. Never expect ANYONE to care about you.
last edited by
Allow me to clear some things up and smack Link upside the head for leaving out 95% of the relevant info.
1: The item drop system is a RANDOM CHANCE rolled every X minutes; three rolls happen when this occurs.
Roll 1: Do you get an item?
Roll 2: Which item is it?
Roll 3 (If roll 2 lands on what's about a 1% chance for a hat to drop): Which hat is it?
2: The 'program' people were using? Valve had known about it for a long time and had commented before to the effect that they didn't mind.
3: Said program simply simulated logging you into a server. And waiting. So in effect, all it did was IDLE you on a fake server and wait. The rolls from item 1 are still in effect. All the program did was give you extra chances by letting you be logged in constantly.
4: Before this there was something called an 'idle server', where people joined the game... specifically to idle. The program got rid of a lot of these, as people used it instead.
5: "Due to us not having a policy in place prior to today, this time we're only removing the items earned through cheating the system." Due to us NOT HAVING A POLICY? What this means is they're retroactively punishing a % of the ACTIVE user base (Much larger than 4.5% of it, let me tell you), and giving the ones who either have no time or didn't really care about hats enough to idle using the program, a halo. Note that 'using the program' in there. People who still idled on IN-GAME servers? No punishment and halo given.
My take: I downloaded a 'frag halos first' spray.
I plan to use it.
1: The item drop system is a RANDOM CHANCE rolled every X minutes; three rolls happen when this occurs.
Roll 1: Do you get an item?
Roll 2: Which item is it?
Roll 3 (If roll 2 lands on what's about a 1% chance for a hat to drop): Which hat is it?
2: The 'program' people were using? Valve had known about it for a long time and had commented before to the effect that they didn't mind.
3: Said program simply simulated logging you into a server. And waiting. So in effect, all it did was IDLE you on a fake server and wait. The rolls from item 1 are still in effect. All the program did was give you extra chances by letting you be logged in constantly.
4: Before this there was something called an 'idle server', where people joined the game... specifically to idle. The program got rid of a lot of these, as people used it instead.
5: "Due to us not having a policy in place prior to today, this time we're only removing the items earned through cheating the system." Due to us NOT HAVING A POLICY? What this means is they're retroactively punishing a % of the ACTIVE user base (Much larger than 4.5% of it, let me tell you), and giving the ones who either have no time or didn't really care about hats enough to idle using the program, a halo. Note that 'using the program' in there. People who still idled on IN-GAME servers? No punishment and halo given.
My take: I downloaded a 'frag halos first' spray.
I plan to use it.
last edited by
I'll be the devils advocate here, and say that Valve screwed up big time.
The "hat system" works the following:
- You gain "hats", purely cosmetic items for being logged in.
- You gain hats randomly.
- You can gain a hat more than once.
- You cannot trade hats.
What does this mean?
If you don't care about hats, cause you are a cool guy like that, then the system works marvelously for you cause you are getting shit for free.
However... if you want a hat badly, what can you do? There are no achievements to unlock, there is an absolutely MASSIVE amounts of hats, and your chances of getting the one you actually want are astronomical... and they don't even improve over time since getting a hat doesn't mean you won't get it again.
So, to get the hat that you want, you have to be logged on. There is no incentive to actually play. The loophole was there because they implemented a retarded ass backwards system, and I don't think it's fair to condemn people for actually doing the logical thing. I don't see how a "hack" that basically simulates you standing in a map disturbs other's enjoyment of the game more than actually logging in then going AFK.
Valve should've added achievements in for hats, so people who absolutely must have the hats can grind them if they want in a relatively short time, while people who don't give a damn can still get them over time.
EDIT: Twi ninja'd me
Yeah the retroactive punishment/halo is just oil to the fire. I really have no idea what they are thinking...
The "hat system" works the following:
- You gain "hats", purely cosmetic items for being logged in.
- You gain hats randomly.
- You can gain a hat more than once.
- You cannot trade hats.
What does this mean?
If you don't care about hats, cause you are a cool guy like that, then the system works marvelously for you cause you are getting shit for free.
However... if you want a hat badly, what can you do? There are no achievements to unlock, there is an absolutely MASSIVE amounts of hats, and your chances of getting the one you actually want are astronomical... and they don't even improve over time since getting a hat doesn't mean you won't get it again.
So, to get the hat that you want, you have to be logged on. There is no incentive to actually play. The loophole was there because they implemented a retarded ass backwards system, and I don't think it's fair to condemn people for actually doing the logical thing. I don't see how a "hack" that basically simulates you standing in a map disturbs other's enjoyment of the game more than actually logging in then going AFK.
Valve should've added achievements in for hats, so people who absolutely must have the hats can grind them if they want in a relatively short time, while people who don't give a damn can still get them over time.
EDIT: Twi ninja'd me
Yeah the retroactive punishment/halo is just oil to the fire. I really have no idea what they are thinking...
last edited by
I completely agree with Twi, but that's no reason to take it out on other players. I say write to Robin and give all of your reasons why that what they did was unfair to players, and insist that they fix it, rather than taking it out on those players that decided not to/didn't know about idling and just want to show off their shiny new hat.
(Besides, it shows cloaked Spies that are wearing it, so that's a bit of a plus for some of us)
(Besides, it shows cloaked Spies that are wearing it, so that's a bit of a plus for some of us)
last edited by
I'm not sure on the specifics, but if people were able to get items other than the hats through using a virtual server and then used said items in actual servers that are part of Valve's VAC system, I'd have to side with Valve in this case. While they didn't have a direct policy for this particular cheat, and it is cheating (similar to creating a custom server in WoW, decking your guy out in all epic gear without putting the work into it, then transferring him to an actual server), they do have a policy for cheating in general.
"Valve has a zero-tolerance policy for cheating and will not lift VAC bans under any circumstances." (https://support.steampowered.com/kb_article...=7849-RADZ-6869)
It is because they didn't have the policy in the first place that they took only the items gained away. Were they retroactively punishing people in accordance with their anti-cheat policy, all of those players would've been banned, not just lightened of the items they got by using a piece of third party software.
As far as awarding those who didn't cheat... That I'll agree is kinda messed up. It's like beating a child for wanting stealing ice cream, then making him watch his brother eat some in front of him.
In short: Were they wrong in taking the items? Based off of the information I have, I don't believe so. Were they right in rewarding those who didn't cheat? Probably not.
(I know my WoW example most likely couldn't happen, but the concept behind it is the same)
"Valve has a zero-tolerance policy for cheating and will not lift VAC bans under any circumstances." (https://support.steampowered.com/kb_article...=7849-RADZ-6869)
It is because they didn't have the policy in the first place that they took only the items gained away. Were they retroactively punishing people in accordance with their anti-cheat policy, all of those players would've been banned, not just lightened of the items they got by using a piece of third party software.
As far as awarding those who didn't cheat... That I'll agree is kinda messed up. It's like beating a child for wanting stealing ice cream, then making him watch his brother eat some in front of him.
In short: Were they wrong in taking the items? Based off of the information I have, I don't believe so. Were they right in rewarding those who didn't cheat? Probably not.
(I know my WoW example most likely couldn't happen, but the concept behind it is the same)
last edited by
I disagree for 2 reasons.
1.) Hats are cosmetic. They don't give bonuses.
2.) This promotes logging in then going AFK in a live game, possibly destroying the experience for others.
If I had to choose between going against policy and going against stupid, I'd choose going against stupid. Of course, I'm not a company.
1.) Hats are cosmetic. They don't give bonuses.
2.) This promotes logging in then going AFK in a live game, possibly destroying the experience for others.
If I had to choose between going against policy and going against stupid, I'd choose going against stupid. Of course, I'm not a company.
last edited by
Knight, while I cannot argue your second point, the first I'll have to refute based off of one thing: More than hats are gathered this way. Any of the weapons unlockable from getting achievements, at least last time I check, could be wrong, were also part of the same random unlock that dropped hats. If Twi's numbers are to be used in this, that means that 99 out of 100 times you're getting a new weapon. A new weapon that can be used in a live game. Against people who didn't have the luxury of having a bot unlock them all for them. Letting people who gathered all of these items keep them just because Valve hadn't thought of that particular cheat would be stupid, as would banning all of them for cheating for the very same reason.
Nor would allowing them to keep the hats be a good move, since they obtained them illegally.
"Valve may terminate your Account or a particular Subscription for any conduct or activity that Valve believes is illegal, constitutes a Cheat, or which otherwise negatively affects the enjoyment of Steam by other Subscribers" (Steam Subscriber Agreement).
Illegal in this case can range from violating state or government law to violating the ToS that 90% of people probably didn't read. It isn't much of a stretch to say that using any third party software that makes the game do something it isn't meant to do, such as simulate an active log in when no log in has occurred or gives you access to better items without going through the proper channels violates the ToS and is therefore "illegal."
Again, if it just the items that people got from using the bot, then Valve did nothing wrong taking them away, hats and all. However, if I am mistaken and all items were taken from those who did this, legit or not, then Valve's indiscrimination is proper grounds to be angry. Otherwise, people just need to stop whining that just because they didn't want to wait for the items to drop in game they were punished. They agreed to a Terms of Service before they started playing, they should expect reprecussions should they break them.
Nor would allowing them to keep the hats be a good move, since they obtained them illegally.
"Valve may terminate your Account or a particular Subscription for any conduct or activity that Valve believes is illegal, constitutes a Cheat, or which otherwise negatively affects the enjoyment of Steam by other Subscribers" (Steam Subscriber Agreement).
Illegal in this case can range from violating state or government law to violating the ToS that 90% of people probably didn't read. It isn't much of a stretch to say that using any third party software that makes the game do something it isn't meant to do, such as simulate an active log in when no log in has occurred or gives you access to better items without going through the proper channels violates the ToS and is therefore "illegal."
Again, if it just the items that people got from using the bot, then Valve did nothing wrong taking them away, hats and all. However, if I am mistaken and all items were taken from those who did this, legit or not, then Valve's indiscrimination is proper grounds to be angry. Otherwise, people just need to stop whining that just because they didn't want to wait for the items to drop in game they were punished. They agreed to a Terms of Service before they started playing, they should expect reprecussions should they break them.
last edited by
Firstly, half the people just kept using achievement_idle servers.
This got the items by doing nothing, just saving some CPU the effort.
Secondly, the drop system when first implemented screwed over anyone who wasn't astronomically lucky. You get- another backburner. Good luck using it over your old one?
It didn't give you ingame bonuses from the Achievement Fix onward.
OH WOW I GOT A LEVEL 100 FAN OFF IDLING. Too bad it doesn't actually do anything different and thus give me ingame bonuses.
The only things you get are a pixel rendition of a hat that does absolutely nothing except make you look pretty.
People want customization for their characters. They would like to look pretty.
But that's not the real issue. The real issue is how valve handled it.
They could have just said 3 months ago 'don't use the idler, we don't like it >:['
The sourceop guy who made it would have shut it down. He did it when they made the post.
This was uncalled for and unexpected.
They had 3 months to say they didn't want it. All they gave was vague mumblings about how they wouldn't really act on it.
This got the items by doing nothing, just saving some CPU the effort.
Secondly, the drop system when first implemented screwed over anyone who wasn't astronomically lucky. You get- another backburner. Good luck using it over your old one?
It didn't give you ingame bonuses from the Achievement Fix onward.
OH WOW I GOT A LEVEL 100 FAN OFF IDLING. Too bad it doesn't actually do anything different and thus give me ingame bonuses.
The only things you get are a pixel rendition of a hat that does absolutely nothing except make you look pretty.
People want customization for their characters. They would like to look pretty.
But that's not the real issue. The real issue is how valve handled it.
They could have just said 3 months ago 'don't use the idler, we don't like it >:['
The sourceop guy who made it would have shut it down. He did it when they made the post.
This was uncalled for and unexpected.
They had 3 months to say they didn't want it. All they gave was vague mumblings about how they wouldn't really act on it.
last edited by
Meh, if Valve considers it cheating, then its cheating. Its their game and they can do whatever the hell they want with it. Don't like it? Don't play.
last edited by
People used an external application that modifies the game. Items was supposed to be rewarded to those who are playing the game, not those who thinks they are so clever by tricking the system.
Valve was way too slack. Usage of this application should result in VAC bans.
Idlers are assholes. End of story.
Valve was way too slack. Usage of this application should result in VAC bans.
Idlers are assholes. End of story.
last edited by
Yet those assholes got the halos...
This isn't about breaking the rules, of course Valve should ban third party apps. That's not in question here. No one is defending cheating.
However... since "idle servers" weren't banned, all it achieved for you was a bit of a save on your memory. The punishment is kind of disproportional compared to that. And their unlock system still sucks ass.
As for getting weapons through it... weapons were supposed to be different not better, hence getting them is not supposed to make your performance better. (Admittedly, this didn't work out so well). Also, you could get the weapons through the achievements in what? 15-30 minutes/class? You didn't need to wait for them unlike hats.
This isn't about breaking the rules, of course Valve should ban third party apps. That's not in question here. No one is defending cheating.
However... since "idle servers" weren't banned, all it achieved for you was a bit of a save on your memory. The punishment is kind of disproportional compared to that. And their unlock system still sucks ass.
As for getting weapons through it... weapons were supposed to be different not better, hence getting them is not supposed to make your performance better. (Admittedly, this didn't work out so well). Also, you could get the weapons through the achievements in what? 15-30 minutes/class? You didn't need to wait for them unlike hats.
last edited by
Quote (Knight)
Yet those assholes got the halos...
This isn't about breaking the rules, of course Valve should ban third party apps. That's not in question here. No one is defending cheating.
However... since "idle servers" weren't banned, all it achieved for you was a bit of a save on your memory. The punishment is kind of disproportional compared to that. And their unlock system still sucks ass.
As for getting weapons through it... weapons were supposed to be different not better, hence getting them is not supposed to make your performance better. (Admittedly, this didn't work out so well). Also, you could get the weapons through the achievements in what? 15-30 minutes/class? You didn't need to wait for them unlike hats.
Idle servers weren't banned because Valve realized that they couldn't realistically prevent them. What if you joined a real server that didn't kick AFK people and just idled there? should that server be banned too?
Valve made the purely logical choice. They banned third party applications (which are not allowed according to Valve's terms of service, so anybody who says there was no warning is full of shit).
I agree that their unlock system sucks ass, but, considering the alternatives and their holes, it's the best they could pick. All performance based systems can too easily be cheated.
last edited by
Quote ()
Idle servers weren't banned because Valve realized that they couldn't realistically prevent them. What if you joined a real server that didn't kick AFK people and just idled there? should that server be banned too?
That's not the point. The point is that compared to the idle server, this hack only saved memory. All they achieved is punishing people who didn't want to waste precious time on doing nothing (and them having to do that nothing again now... this time using the resources of a server. Yay!)
Quote ()
I agree that their unlock system sucks ass, but, considering the alternatives and their holes, it's the best they could pick. All performance based systems can too easily be cheated.
"Cheated"?
As in? Unless you consider achievement servers more cheating than AFK servers... (or am I missing something and achievement hacking is commonplace?).
last edited by
Quote (Link2125)
Ok, so I've been on /v/ and the TF2 forums for a while now, and the one thing that jumps out at me is the Halo debate, and how butthurt everyone is over it. So I was wondering: what's RE:RN's opinion on the matter?
I use the "FAG" skin.
last edited by
Quote (Hiko)
Quote (Link2125)
Ok, so I've been on /v/ and the TF2 forums for a while now, and the one thing that jumps out at me is the Halo debate, and how butthurt everyone is over it. So I was wondering: what's RE:RN's opinion on the matter?
I use the "FAG" skin.
Because Hiko's a FAG.
last edited by
Quote (Aurion)
Quote (Hiko)
Quote (Link2125)
Ok, so I've been on /v/ and the TF2 forums for a while now, and the one thing that jumps out at me is the Halo debate, and how butthurt everyone is over it. So I was wondering: what's RE:RN's opinion on the matter?
I use the "FAG" skin.
Because Hiko's a FAG.
Mature. Also, at Drakim, if they thought Drunken_F00l's brain child was a third party "hacking" application, again, they had a lot of time to voice their opinions and publicly ban the first people to use it.
I was suspicious, then EVERYONE I KNEW started using it. So I used it. Then they 'punished' me with a stupid update and 'haloz' for following the group, and responding to my friends going 'hurr hurr look how many hats I got.' Sorry, 4.5%? I have over 30 idling friends on a regular basis.