*shrug*
This way's probably more effective anyhow.
Subtypes?
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My thoughts:
If you want an entirely new system and have a good idea for it, please pitch it. I don't really at the moment though, so I'll suggest how I'd revamp the current.
So far as wind type goes, I would suggest that it's mostly balanced; it's just up to the mod to decide how much slack they can give. The only error that could result from that is a mod's impartiallity, which isn't something I'd factor in anyways, since I trust our mods. One problem that's been brought up, however, is that there's really no sense in the possible stun when dodging (it's also vague enough so that many mods will never consider using it on a good RPer, and furthermore, is not likely to activate because they're, well, dodging). What I would suggest is maybe making them less adept on the ground. To do this, you could lower the efficiency of ground-bound chips such as cactballs, any type of shockwaves, firetowers, or other attacks which in the games required that panels were under the opponent.
There may be other ways to balance it to, that was just one suggestion. I don't think it's so off-key.
Of course, my major problem is still break type, not because I'm a break type myself, but because I feel like the irregularity should be obvious. I'd like to clarify again, I'm not just asking for its buff for my own sake, but also for the sake of anyone else who creates a break type in the future. Anyways, stuff that needs to be fixed.
A: Relatively insignificant HP gain. The whole "30 HP by level 15" deal.
B: Barrier and HP recovery debuff that is likely contradictory of a breaking character's nature, since most imagine them as tankers and what not.
C: Charge shot is only definite way of breaking, and requires 3 turns of charging for a maximum 100 (5 x 5 x 4, right?) damage; 200 if you're elemental, but that's still not awe-inspiring for a three turn charge with elemental boost. You could get in 600 by using 3 wideshots on a fire navi with the same amount of turns that it would take to do 200 (1/2 that do to current effect, so only 100).
D: Almost no obstacles to destroy using superior RP.
E: Charge shot's lowered accuracy makes it even more useless.
F: Charge shot's 1/2 damage makes it yet more useless.
Basically, I think break type needs a general overhaul, given that it seems to me... 3 disadvantages with no practical advantage. I'll help brainstorm ways to fix it later, but it's lunch time for now. Honest though, I'll try to help with it later on.
If you want an entirely new system and have a good idea for it, please pitch it. I don't really at the moment though, so I'll suggest how I'd revamp the current.
So far as wind type goes, I would suggest that it's mostly balanced; it's just up to the mod to decide how much slack they can give. The only error that could result from that is a mod's impartiallity, which isn't something I'd factor in anyways, since I trust our mods. One problem that's been brought up, however, is that there's really no sense in the possible stun when dodging (it's also vague enough so that many mods will never consider using it on a good RPer, and furthermore, is not likely to activate because they're, well, dodging). What I would suggest is maybe making them less adept on the ground. To do this, you could lower the efficiency of ground-bound chips such as cactballs, any type of shockwaves, firetowers, or other attacks which in the games required that panels were under the opponent.
There may be other ways to balance it to, that was just one suggestion. I don't think it's so off-key.
Of course, my major problem is still break type, not because I'm a break type myself, but because I feel like the irregularity should be obvious. I'd like to clarify again, I'm not just asking for its buff for my own sake, but also for the sake of anyone else who creates a break type in the future. Anyways, stuff that needs to be fixed.
A: Relatively insignificant HP gain. The whole "30 HP by level 15" deal.
B: Barrier and HP recovery debuff that is likely contradictory of a breaking character's nature, since most imagine them as tankers and what not.
C: Charge shot is only definite way of breaking, and requires 3 turns of charging for a maximum 100 (5 x 5 x 4, right?) damage; 200 if you're elemental, but that's still not awe-inspiring for a three turn charge with elemental boost. You could get in 600 by using 3 wideshots on a fire navi with the same amount of turns that it would take to do 200 (1/2 that do to current effect, so only 100).
D: Almost no obstacles to destroy using superior RP.
E: Charge shot's lowered accuracy makes it even more useless.
F: Charge shot's 1/2 damage makes it yet more useless.
Basically, I think break type needs a general overhaul, given that it seems to me... 3 disadvantages with no practical advantage. I'll help brainstorm ways to fix it later, but it's lunch time for now. Honest though, I'll try to help with it later on.
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Sidenote to all you Moderators and Members. Break underpowered? Please...
Recovery.
- Break breaks barriers. Recovery is helpless.
- Wind blows away barriers. Recovery is helpless.
- Target and Sword receive bonuses to chips. Recovery has decreased HP from HP Memories.
Recovery is weak against ALL sub-types. And here I am thinking of changing to Recovery. Maybe I'll just join the group and become the SUPPOSEDLY overpowered Wind type.
Another note. If you're going to revamp the system... Then you'd better get some comments of the members. We don't want to end up with something that will make RPing less comfortable.
Recovery.
- Break breaks barriers. Recovery is helpless.
- Wind blows away barriers. Recovery is helpless.
- Target and Sword receive bonuses to chips. Recovery has decreased HP from HP Memories.
Recovery is weak against ALL sub-types. And here I am thinking of changing to Recovery. Maybe I'll just join the group and become the SUPPOSEDLY overpowered Wind type.
Another note. If you're going to revamp the system... Then you'd better get some comments of the members. We don't want to end up with something that will make RPing less comfortable.
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Quote (Shuryou)
Sidenote to all you Moderators and Members. Break underpowered? Please...
Recovery.
- Break breaks barriers. Recovery is helpless.
- Wind blows away barriers. Recovery is helpless.
- Target and Sword receive bonuses to chips. Recovery has decreased HP from HP Memories.
Recovery is weak against ALL sub-types. And here I am thinking of changing to Recovery. Maybe I'll just join the group and become the SUPPOSEDLY overpowered Wind type.
Another note. If you're going to revamp the system... Then you'd better get some comments of the members. We don't want to end up with something that will make RPing less comfortable.
For starters, break breaks barriers only on the condition of using your charged buster, which takes three turns to do, hurts a maximum 50 without elemental advantage and with all powerups, yada yada yada. A barrier isn't likely to considered an "obstacle, trap, or other thing" smashable by superior RPing. I think that only applies to tangible objects.
Additionally, wind does not blow away barriers. We've been through that before.
# Wind types are hard targets, especially when using actions to dodge.
# Only flying navis allowed.
# Charged attacks can push target out of melee range and/or into obstacles.
# Wind types who RP well are more accurate
No barrier removal.
I won't deny that recovery type is also kind of strange, now that I look at it. The barrier you generate, for instance, can have no more than 50 HP even at max value, and the drawbacks do seem horrendous. Furthermore, the amount of actions you have to expend to recover or make a shield makes it hardly worth doing (using a barrier battlechip for one turn seems much more advantageous than expending two turns to make a barrier which can have, at max, 50 HP). The HP charge will take 3 actions, which is uh... also bad.
So I do see what you're saying, recovery types are messed up. But that doesn't change the fact that break types are also messed up.
((Additionally, I'll be trying to think of stuff throughout the day to address these issues))
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Recovery also has a chance of 'spontaneous healing' with very good RP. Using the charge to heal is okay if you have more than 3 actions per turn and decent buster upgrades.
I'll be happy with whatever as long as break doesn't suffer a severe healing penalty.
((Off topic note: I like how it doesn't show when I changed my reply last. I always found that to be unsightly.))
I'll be happy with whatever as long as break doesn't suffer a severe healing penalty.
((Off topic note: I like how it doesn't show when I changed my reply last. I always found that to be unsightly.))
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As is blowing away stuff with a good buster.
In break. We're revamping the system so that everything is balanced.
In break. We're revamping the system so that everything is balanced.
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I'd like to actually go as far as to introduce more types and really, really revamp it. Subtypes were partially my responsibility too.
If I'm given this chance, then Wind types will be frail but hard to hit, and Break types will be tankers.
Wind and Break will have improved busters. You already know about Cursor and Sword.
The other types (2, I think) will probably focus on disabling their opponents, or perhaps they will ease the upgrade and bashing proccess but actually give a general disadvantage.
Thus we have two who focus on defense, two who focus on chips, and two who are weak but easier to grow.
If I'm given this chance, then Wind types will be frail but hard to hit, and Break types will be tankers.
Wind and Break will have improved busters. You already know about Cursor and Sword.
The other types (2, I think) will probably focus on disabling their opponents, or perhaps they will ease the upgrade and bashing proccess but actually give a general disadvantage.
Thus we have two who focus on defense, two who focus on chips, and two who are weak but easier to grow.
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I think we need to unveil the new system in progress before we vote on things, but that's just me. As a mere member of the site, I have little-to-no knowledge about the workings of the mods. Saying that the system will be unveiled after people vote on it is like (and pardon me for using a US political analogy, non-American members) voting for "Mysterious Candidate X" from the "political change" party - it doesn't allow for informed decisions.
Anyways, just my two cents.
One way to look at the system is to separate advantages (things that a subtype does better than normal) and disadvantages (things that a subtype does worse than normal) into "definite" (things that happen regardless of RP quality), and "RP" (things that happen based on RP quality and mod's discretion). One benefit of this model is that it shows why Wind is so imbalanced (lack of definite disadvantages) and offers some context as to what needs to be changed.
Break:
Definite Advantages:
-+10 HP per every 5 levels (Negligible)
-Buster has a Breaking Effect
Definite Disadvantages:
-50% healing and barriers
Passive Advantages:
-Smashes Obstacles (Negligible)
-SuperArmor effect
Passive Disadvantages:
-Decreased Accuracy/Dodging
Wind:
Definite Advantages:
-Buster has a knockback Effect
-Omnishoes-style effect with flight
Definite Disadvantages:
NONE
RP Advantages:
-Boosted Dodges
-Boosted Accuracy with good RP
RP Disadvantages:
-Wind types can be stunned if they fall (Negligible, never seen it happen)
Recovery:
Definite Advantages:
-Heal for 100 tops
-Barrier for 50 tops
Definite Disadvantages:
-Half-HP gain per HP memory
-No Charged Shot
RP Advantages
-Spontaneous Heal (Negligible, NEVER seen it happen and it's unclear what conditions need to be fulfilled)
RP Disadvantages
-Less Accuracy
-Less Evade
Here are my suggestions for altering the existing system (because I have no idea what the new system is). It makes Break more tank-like while balancing out active and passive disadvantages. Changes are in red.
Break:
Definite Advantages:
-+30 HP per HP memory
-Buster has a Breaking Effect
-Active Superarmor - Can use one action to prevent from flinching/being blown around.
Definite Disadvantages:
-75% Heal, 50% Barrier strength
Passive Advantages:
-Smashes Obstacles
-Increased accuracy at melee range.
Passive Disadvantages:
-Decreased Accuracy/Dodging
Wind:
Definite Advantages:
-Buster has a knockback Effect
-Omnishoes-style effect with flight
Definite Disadvantages:
- -10 to non-gun or sword chips
RP Advantages:
-Boosted Dodges
RP Disadvantages:
-Wind types are likely to be stunned if they are hit while dodging
-Decreased accuracy when dodging (due to quick speed evasion)
Recovery:
Definite Advantages:
-Heal for 100 tops
-Barrier for 75 tops and enable twice per battle per 5 levels (increase barrier formula to Atk*Chg*3)
Definite Disadvantages:
-Half-HP gain per HP memory
-No Charged Shot
RP Advantages
-Increased Evade against ranged chips
RP Disadvantages
-Less Accuracy at melee range
Anyways, just my two cents.
One way to look at the system is to separate advantages (things that a subtype does better than normal) and disadvantages (things that a subtype does worse than normal) into "definite" (things that happen regardless of RP quality), and "RP" (things that happen based on RP quality and mod's discretion). One benefit of this model is that it shows why Wind is so imbalanced (lack of definite disadvantages) and offers some context as to what needs to be changed.
Break:
Definite Advantages:
-+10 HP per every 5 levels (Negligible)
-Buster has a Breaking Effect
Definite Disadvantages:
-50% healing and barriers
Passive Advantages:
-Smashes Obstacles (Negligible)
-SuperArmor effect
Passive Disadvantages:
-Decreased Accuracy/Dodging
Wind:
Definite Advantages:
-Buster has a knockback Effect
-Omnishoes-style effect with flight
Definite Disadvantages:
NONE
RP Advantages:
-Boosted Dodges
-Boosted Accuracy with good RP
RP Disadvantages:
-Wind types can be stunned if they fall (Negligible, never seen it happen)
Recovery:
Definite Advantages:
-Heal for 100 tops
-Barrier for 50 tops
Definite Disadvantages:
-Half-HP gain per HP memory
-No Charged Shot
RP Advantages
-Spontaneous Heal (Negligible, NEVER seen it happen and it's unclear what conditions need to be fulfilled)
RP Disadvantages
-Less Accuracy
-Less Evade
Here are my suggestions for altering the existing system (because I have no idea what the new system is). It makes Break more tank-like while balancing out active and passive disadvantages. Changes are in red.
Break:
Definite Advantages:
-+30 HP per HP memory
-Buster has a Breaking Effect
-Active Superarmor - Can use one action to prevent from flinching/being blown around.
Definite Disadvantages:
-75% Heal, 50% Barrier strength
Passive Advantages:
-Smashes Obstacles
-Increased accuracy at melee range.
Passive Disadvantages:
-Decreased Accuracy/Dodging
Wind:
Definite Advantages:
-Buster has a knockback Effect
-Omnishoes-style effect with flight
Definite Disadvantages:
- -10 to non-gun or sword chips
RP Advantages:
-Boosted Dodges
RP Disadvantages:
-Wind types are likely to be stunned if they are hit while dodging
-Decreased accuracy when dodging (due to quick speed evasion)
Recovery:
Definite Advantages:
-Heal for 100 tops
-Barrier for 75 tops and enable twice per battle per 5 levels (increase barrier formula to Atk*Chg*3)
Definite Disadvantages:
-Half-HP gain per HP memory
-No Charged Shot
RP Advantages
-Increased Evade against ranged chips
RP Disadvantages
-Less Accuracy at melee range
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There are no weaknesses for sword, either.
Sure, they lose some damage on ranged chips and such, and some missed accuracy, but that's really a nulled weakness, due to the fact that you can close the distance as if there was none at all.
Sure, they lose some damage on ranged chips and such, and some missed accuracy, but that's really a nulled weakness, due to the fact that you can close the distance as if there was none at all.
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Quote (EonOmega)
There are no weaknesses for sword, either.
Sure, they lose some damage on ranged chips and such, and some missed accuracy, but that's really a nulled weakness, due to the fact that you can close the distance as if there was none at all.
True, but there still exists a definite disadvantage on ranged chips, which forces you to rely on a certain strategy (which, under my new system, would put you in range of the increased accuracy of Break Types). The weakening of cheap elemental multi-hit chips such as wideshots and shotguns is a pretty significant disadvantage. I don't really think it's nulled at all, since you're making yourself vulnerable at close range. Maybe if we took out Sword's RP evasion boost? Or make the evasion boost only apply to melee-range attacks? That way they'd still be open to sniping attacks from other viruses or a teleporting cursor-type, or a flying wind type, or...
...well, you get the idea.
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I don't think you could just close the distance to make a ranged chip a close range one. If that were the case, I would have simply stood at a distance and thrown a sword from long range to negate the cursor disadvantage. XD
On another note, yeah, Sky, that was sort of what I was thinking. Although it could be met with the inititial skepticism for containing more subtypes, I think people would really like to see the proposed system. I know I would, at least. If we can see it, we'll probably be less skeptical.
One problem with that system, I think, is that you haven't proposed any way to make anyone more able to dodge close ranged chips, yet one type now can dodge long range easier and another has boosted melee capabilities. It seems that one of the styles should also be able to dodge melee more easily, if you go by this...
Uh.... What else... Well, I'll think on it...
On another note, yeah, Sky, that was sort of what I was thinking. Although it could be met with the inititial skepticism for containing more subtypes, I think people would really like to see the proposed system. I know I would, at least. If we can see it, we'll probably be less skeptical.
One problem with that system, I think, is that you haven't proposed any way to make anyone more able to dodge close ranged chips, yet one type now can dodge long range easier and another has boosted melee capabilities. It seems that one of the styles should also be able to dodge melee more easily, if you go by this...
Uh.... What else... Well, I'll think on it...
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I agree with Eon (although I have made my sig attack to close distance)
Some kind of distance system should be introduced. Like, melee would need one action to close distance, and an extra one if the enemy is a cursor (because they can start sniping from a distance; in this case even normal navis need to get closer, because they just can't hit as far as a cursor). Considering that Melee chips are a lot more powerful
I would drop increased dodge for Wind, but they'd get free movement in exchange. For example, the melee types would have to close distance every round, and a melee wind could get close to a sniper without a problem.
They can also keep enemies at bay with their air-shot charge.
One last advantage is the permanent air-shield around them, which makes long range attacks have reduced chance to hit.
The drawback of wind would be that they need to use the navicust "wings" for their abilities to work. Takes up 40 cust-space.
There is no use in totally revamping Break, until there are no panels/obstacles to actually use the break effect on.
I'd buff break by the following:
- Charged attack deals attack*charge*6 dmg (instead of attack*charge*4)
- Drop the increased miss chance on charged attack
- Can ignore stuns and the like when using charge/sig attack
- HPmemory gives double the amount of hp
Maybe I've overdid it, but you see my point.
Some kind of distance system should be introduced. Like, melee would need one action to close distance, and an extra one if the enemy is a cursor (because they can start sniping from a distance; in this case even normal navis need to get closer, because they just can't hit as far as a cursor). Considering that Melee chips are a lot more powerful
I would drop increased dodge for Wind, but they'd get free movement in exchange. For example, the melee types would have to close distance every round, and a melee wind could get close to a sniper without a problem.
They can also keep enemies at bay with their air-shot charge.
One last advantage is the permanent air-shield around them, which makes long range attacks have reduced chance to hit.
The drawback of wind would be that they need to use the navicust "wings" for their abilities to work. Takes up 40 cust-space.
There is no use in totally revamping Break, until there are no panels/obstacles to actually use the break effect on.
I'd buff break by the following:
- Charged attack deals attack*charge*6 dmg (instead of attack*charge*4)
- Drop the increased miss chance on charged attack
- Can ignore stuns and the like when using charge/sig attack
- HPmemory gives double the amount of hp
Maybe I've overdid it, but you see my point.
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What I don't get is that if wind-types are so nimble and swift, why would they recieve a nerf to non-ranged chips? Odds are, if you have the ability to move around a lot, you're not going to be sitting still long enough to take potshots. If anything, I'd say their gun skill would be nerfed instead.
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Ummmmm.....well........
None of those options fit me, because I would like some nerfing and polishing on all cylinders. But yes, both Wind and Break are in the greatest need of being changed.
None of those options fit me, because I would like some nerfing and polishing on all cylinders. But yes, both Wind and Break are in the greatest need of being changed.
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Quote (Rules)
* Wind types are hard targets, especially when using actions to dodge.
* Only flying navis allowed.
* Charged attacks can push target out of melee range and/or into obstacles.
* Wind types who RP well are more accurate.
The half or more than a half of the so-called Wind Navis don't even fly. Some got it approved because of 'reasons'. I'd like a Recovery Navi without the 10 HP per HP Memory debuff because I have 'reasons'.
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The not flying without wings thing is actually a disadvantage... yours would be an advantage, and not as vague as the disadvantage of not being able to fly. O_O
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My Wind Navi uses every aspect to full advantage, but I intentionally made my Wind Navi physically weaker than the other types. I was planning on not upgrading her HP as much to counter the fact that she's fast, agile, and accurate.
As for not being knocked out of the sky and stunned? Winter's experienced this 3 times since I created her. Once she was simply stunned... the second time she was stunned and damaged by the fall... and the third time she was simply damaged by the fall. I'll also note she flies without the use of wings.
Grounded and Stunned are separate cons, because falling means Fall Damage, and stunned means unable to act. Double trouble when you're hit with BOTH. I would know.
Like I proposed before, I have no problems with nerfing the charged shot damage in exchange for the knockback effect. X2 instead of X4 is reasonable.
I'm also for decreasing their HP, as they should be frail. 80 Base HP, and +15 per HP Mem sounds fine.
I see no purpose behind nerfing their Chip combat capabilities at all.
As for not being knocked out of the sky and stunned? Winter's experienced this 3 times since I created her. Once she was simply stunned... the second time she was stunned and damaged by the fall... and the third time she was simply damaged by the fall. I'll also note she flies without the use of wings.
Grounded and Stunned are separate cons, because falling means Fall Damage, and stunned means unable to act. Double trouble when you're hit with BOTH. I would know.
Like I proposed before, I have no problems with nerfing the charged shot damage in exchange for the knockback effect. X2 instead of X4 is reasonable.
I'm also for decreasing their HP, as they should be frail. 80 Base HP, and +15 per HP Mem sounds fine.
I see no purpose behind nerfing their Chip combat capabilities at all.