Cross/Multi-Navi suggestion/idea

Quote (Lt._Grim_Reaper)

Though the level requirements could prevent this, it would allow any user with a level 20+ navi to design another navi with the exact element and subtype they want, and insta-cross.

We could add yet another requirement that requires both navis to be over certain level in order to trade crosses. So a user with level 20 navi can't instantly make a new navi for the sake of gaining the cross unless they actually put some effort in using the new navi to, lets say, level 5 or so.

I think this is a neat idea, but I'm not sure how others will fare (AKA The Admins~).

Quote (Goroke)

We could add yet another requirement that requires both navis to be over certain level in order to trade crosses. So a user with level 20 navi can't instantly make a new navi for the sake of gaining the cross unless they actually put some effort in using the new navi to, lets say, level 5 or so.

That sounds like a good idea to me.

I'm fine with it, honestly. It would be something nice for the members who don't like the hassle of team busting.

Well, I mentioned my complaints in the chat earlier, but there are several. I'll put them here for the record:

One large one is that right now it feels like there's not a whole lot of room to utilize this, since it takes so long to get level intervals of 20. However, it feels like if we lower the level intervals... it feels like this system becoming useful is just as bad.

Basically, if the system is useful enough to be relied upon, then the already somewhat mild incentive of team busting that helps balance it rewards-wise against moving much faster by yourself will be diminished. I don't think we want to make teaming a less attractive offer.

I feel like sometimes cross building already seems a little superficial (people "cheating the system" by performing stock FXP actions, such as healing), like people haven't really bonded enough for them in certain cases, and having one small thread between two of your own navis as a way of representing all the interaction required for a cross level isn't likely to escape that same criticism.

Also, quite frankly, the members who don't like the hassle of team busting already have something going for them: speed. The cross is the ONE THING that makes teaming systematically worthwhile. Basically all rewards besides BeastOUTs are split evenly and all difficulty besides Cybeasts is scaled proportionally to account for two people.

Crosses really represent the aspect of interacting with others on the site. Even NPC crosses show some interaction between you in the mod and giving a damn about each other's characters. It seems like crossing between your own characters undermines the incentive to team with others.

And/Or you could have non-combat interactions between Multi-Navis to build up the FXP for a Cross (at perhaps an increased FXP rate in order to compensate for lack of battle FXP).

Those are some valid points Aim, though look at it this way. Crossing is, I believe, the only way to bypass the 6 action per turn limit, change your subtype and, with the exception of BOs, the only way to change your Navi's element. So, while you can certainly lvl faster by solo busting, there are benefits to crossing that a solo buster can never achieve.

Also, what is faster: Gaining a lvl one cross or gaining 20 lvls? A lvl 1 cross can pretty much be accomplished in one battle thread depending on the Network and Navi interaction. Getting to a total of 20 levels, even using multiple Navi, is far more difficult. Getting higher level crosses are even more difficult through this system since levels have diminishing returns; i.e. only being able to buy 3 speed upgrades, one buster type, cost increases, etc.

That being said, perhaps we should have the member use non-battle interaction and farm up the FXP. Or maybe have to write a post that needs mod approval in order to use each cross level purchased.

It's not a bad thing for that to be something that only teamed navis can achieve, though. We want to encourage teaming where possible, right? Most RPs seem to be made with that goal in mind, because the natural tendency of people if left alone will be to flock to the easier option, which is foregoing coordination and going it alone. We need a sweet incentive that makes the expected slowdown of teaming worthwhile.

I think I addressed that second issue in my last post, but I'll reiterate. Right now, those level milestones for tokens aren't really realistic because they're too far apart to be very useful to anyone but the several year vets who have RP'd pretty consistently. However, I think that if we put them any closer together, they're going to make this system "useful," and that imo is just as bad; if the system becomes useful, teaming loses some of its incentive.

The problem, as you've stated yourself, is that there is really only one incentive to team bust, and that is to get a cross. If we you guys ever went about making teaming worthwhile for any other reason then perhaps this idea wouldn't have met as much opposition.

The problem with this idea isn't the idea- it's fairly solid and not so horribly easy to use that it negates team busting. The problem is team busting sucks balls, just like it always has. Maybe think of a rework to how team busting works to make it more engaging, interesting, or challenging. And not just "We'll send out 12 mens instead of 6!", but actual challenges that may require teamwork or some thought to overcome with the best results.

I never actually understood why people immediately scaled up the battles with a team anyways. Do they automatically scale up the bad guys numbers/strength in mmo's if you team up and try to kill something a few levels higher? DnD? LoL? I realize that we're a bit limited here to what we can do in such a situation, but making the enemies smarter with more people seems like a far better option than just sending out endless hordes. Then again, I believe most enemy encounters are pretty dumb to start with... but yeah.

I could probably think of more, but I have a sore throat and my dinner is done. So I'm going to go torture myself with delicious pain.

I disagree with most of what you said, here's why:

1) It is entirely your opinion if you think team busting suck balls. I do it with every one of my three navis. I'm not the only one; Mori and Souls are also team busting as we speak. Not sure where you got that idea from.

2) Lots of other MMOs scale difficulty for increased team sizes. It's not even a little bit uncommon. Spiral Knights does it, as a quick example. We need to do it so rewards stay even, with the one difference being the addition of FXP to make up for the slowdown with team busting.

I met the idea with opposition not because I think "people need more incentive to team bust because team busting sucks," but "people need incentive to team bust because their natural tendency is not to do so." That is purely because it requires more communication and coordination with another person, not because it's any worse than soloing.

Heat's problem is with the general grind of virus busting being boring and not feeling "smart;" he thinks that is likely at the root of your complaint as well, rather than the increasing size with team busts. That's just a guess, though.

The "unsmart" feeling of busting is pretty boring, yes. However, team busting does suck. It takes every drawback of the medium and makes it far more noticeable.

But first, to counter your counter.

I don't know of many mmo's that arbitrarily increase a world mob's power just because you are in a group. Almost all of them have areas, usually instances, that are designed for small groups or raids. These are not the "open world" as the net would be synonymous to. The raids and instances of most mmo's would be more like the events that were once held around here, designed for larger groups of people to get together and work to coop an insurmountable force.

However, some Tower Defense games I have played do scale enemies based on amount of players, but I would consider this a far cry from a tower defense game.


1. Turn-turn around.

In a solo round you post, mod posts, you post again, etc. If you're lucky, you may get a couple posts a day. If you aren't, you may get a few a week due to busy/conflicting schedules.

In a team fight, you need to wait for two (or more) people to post before the mod goes. Sure, if memory serves there's still the 3 day rule, but by that time who cares? You might all have incredible timing and get a few posts a week, or you could all have horrible timing conflicts and get 1 or 2 a week. Even with the slight increase from throwing extra enemies at people that 2 posts a week (assuming the three day rule was called 2 times a week) still won't keep up with the several posts a week most solo busters enjoy because they have more to kill to start with.


2. Risk v Rewards

As loosely demonstrated above, solo busting is the "less risky" route to take for trying to get posts made. Which means you end up getting more faster.

Team busts take longer, having a higher risk of your battle stalling and taking forever, and you get a few fxp as compensation. Your battles are scaled "to difficulty" so that rewards can be kept the same as if you were solo busting.

I'd propose simply increasing the rewards you get for solo busting. Make rarer chips drop easier. Extra bugfrags if one of you has a pet. Maybe make harder enemies spawn in group fights with a chance to get their chip at a place unavailable to solo busters. Make team busting look as good as solo.

Crosses are nice and all, but they aren't something you can rely on all the time like 20 extra HP or one extra heal chip or enough room to slot that last piece of your ultimate defense program setup.


And lastly, the simple fact is this - if team busting was worthwhile compared to soloing, people would choose to do it. Since only 4? people choose to do it out of everyone here, I'm fairly sure the numbers would say that it's missing something.

You're right that a lot of MMOs don't scale enemy numbers with teams. There's a reason for that though: because in a lot of those situations, the battle really is just part of the grind. On a forum RP, we want every battle to theoretically stay engaging. If the enemies don't scale up for you teaming, your battle will inevitably become too easy. Alternative is to make the battles bigger to start with, but that has its own problems. I don't really think anyone else has any complaints about battle scaling for team size (someone speak up if I'm wrong).

Crosses are not just a little nice. They're extremely nice, possibly some of the most high potential rewards we have available. They're one of the only ways to increase your actions past five, aside from the arguably even more difficult to obtain BeastOUT (no, passives don't really count the same as increasing your actions), and they allow elemental navis to throw away their weaknesses in stacked battles. I think that they're ultimately a pretty good compensation for the presumed slower speed of team battles.

I should also mention that the idea that team busting moves slower itself might be dated. Lately, the problem is much more waiting for the moderator, while my three man team often has all posts put together in the course of under two days.

That last point's simply not true. Count up the team busting/mission threads and the solo busting/mission threads if you don't believe me. There's not that big a difference. I alone have modded two team missions in just the past month (note: modded, not roleplayed in myself). Teaming is not uncommon, nobody thinks it sucks but you apparently. I'd even wager that most of the current navis you see soloing on RERN are played by players who frequently think about teaming and plan to team in the near future. If you don't believe me, just go ask around in the chat.

Meh. Guess it's just me then. Whatever I suppose, just going by how it was when I actually hung around though I honestly can't imagine it changed that much.