Break type

i know that i have had tow break type navis but.....why do you think i never bought healing chips? they are more or less useless when in a PvsP battle, but if you go virus busting, they can actualy keep you alive in the fight. the barriers/auras are more useful in PvsP vattles but not by much, if you had just a regular aura, a shotgun would take it down quickly and there's no telling what would happen with it's splash. i say that if we keep the 1/2 HP barriers/auras for break types, we should make sure that they can block a FULL attack, not a single attack and if it splashes, it hits......this is all i'm gonna say.

In my constant battle to find a navi that I like entirely I have considered a Break navi, however, it seems to me that it does have a bit of a disadvantage. Now would understand the reason for recover and barrier chips being halfed if Break navis had a more substantial HP pool, but as it stands now, they don't really have much, as has been demonstrated. Also, the ability to smash through barriers is all well and good, but again, this is only useful in a PvP battle against an opponent who happens to have a large number of barriers. Beyond that only the charge attack has the ability to break through barriers, and it suffers from a lack of accuracy, though I'm not sure how bad that really is. Also, the break types ability to smash things or defuse traps only serves a purpose if the opponent actually has traps, which they generally don't at lower levels. In addition it seems that the digital world is completely devoid of any physical objects to smash, unless you happend to be in one of the areas with buildings where you can't fight anyway.

While it is true that much later on these abilities will be more useful, if only marginally, they still have little use for beginner and to some degree intermediate players. They also have no disadvantage with any sort of chip which is nice, but doesn't really compensate for too much. I believe it can be left the way it is so long as break types are allowed a slightly larger amount of HP, and if you're feeling particularly generous possibly a single point added to rapid or charge that may reflect the physical strength that such a navi might have. Something was also mentioned about a situation in which you've managed to beat a break navi down to their last 10 HP then they use a 150 recovery and you have to do it all over again, that would be little different from a sword type doing the same thing, it isn't as though you can do any less damage to a break type, they can only shrug off effects.

Halving the effectiveness of recovery and barrier chips makes sense, but only if the navi has the hp pool to back up such a disability. This is only my observation, do with it what you will.

I definitely see what you're saying.

Giving Break types an extra point of Charge would certainly make sense. Or, even further, we could raise the NaviCust caps for Charge types.

Perhaps I'm going too far.

If needed, I can personally revamp all the subtypes. I would probably add one more, too, or at least make it feel more like a wheel and less like target/sword, then break recov wind as totally unconnected.

The Invis type. Pianissimo if anything.

Demon said he was considering just taking out the HP modifiers altogether for break types (no HP boost, normal healing).

I think that having poor dodging ability is enough of a 'balance' for the increased HP from levels so Break-types should still heal for the normal amount as long as their dodges aren't as effective (2 break-type dodges ~ 1 normal/other-type dodge ~ 0.5 wind-type type dodge). If break-types choose not to evade attacks, they get beat up.

If we took out the "half heal," I'd want to keep the HP boost. Maybe even make the HP boost better, with our current level system.

We could always completely revamp the system. Recov for healing, Plus for damage, Wind for dodging, Break for defense, Target for accuracy. Sword kind of seems like it could apply to any of those, doesn't it? That's why I replaced it with Plus.

I don't feel that Sword is applicable to all of the aforementioned; it possesses a certain independence that Plus lacks. In excluding Sword as a type, you create something of a single quasi sub-sub type. The heirarchy would become overly convoluted;
Element -> Subtype -> Subtypes w/ swords

Not to mention that sword-based boons become non-existent.

No sword?

TT.TT

Quote (Pocket)

(2 break-type dodges ~ 1 normal/other-type dodge ~ 0.5 wind-type type dodge)

-cough-

I think that's an entirely wrong layout there. Allow me to try and show you it a bit better.
Based of of a normal/normal navi, the other type could have to spend up to...

Target - 3
Break and Recover 1.5
Sword and Plus - 1
Wind - .5

Turns dodging to maybe get the same effects.

I see no need for Plus/Bonus/Number/Variable (I hate the fact that it has so many names!) sub-type.

Looking at what you have:

Normal: Basic
Recovery: Healing and Effects specialist
Break: Defense Breaker, Object Smasher.
Sword: Blade Specialist, Dual Wield.
Cursor (Search): Gun Specialist, Accuracy.
Wind: Flying and Mobility


So...

Ground (cracker): Ground attack specialist. Terrain Guru. Gets a boost from Terrain effects. (Hey... Druidman... This fits your bill.)

Invis: Throwing Weapons/Traps Specialist, Stealth. (Kunai, Boomerang, all Traps...)

Object: Bombs and Objects specialist. (Yo-yo, Pawn, Knight, Sensor, Time Bomb, uber-durable-rockcubes... Poltergeist... >=D )

Custom (Number): ...... With all of the specializing going on, this really seems unnecessary. It would boost all chips... Making the other specialized classes seem a bit pointless (in my opinion...). Balancing this would be nearly impossible.

[/Suggestion and Opinion]

BUT, before you respond to what I've just posted (or consider adding anything to the current system)... I'll post one of the golden rules of RPG Design:

Do not overcomplicate something just because that one thing might seem really cool.

(Not following this rule leads to many headaches, RP down-time, loss of RP progress and data due to rule changes, and a possible shift from the original focus of your RP when major changes are made.)

I hope that helps.

Just my 2 cents.

I must concur honestly, all I was looking for was a slight boost to a Break types abilities, not an entirely new set of sub-types. Customization is good, but too much simply makes a mess, as keeping things balanced will take a very, very long time to perfect. As it stands a few minor adjustments will make a nice, stable set of sub-types along with elements, there isn't much need to go back and redo everything.

This of course is just how I see it, only minor changes are needed, not an overhaul.

Demon and I actually sat down one day and figured out a wheel. I don't remember it exactly, but I believe it went something like this.

Cursor is blown off course by wind. (The extra accuracy is counter by the boosted dodge)
Wind is cut through by sword. (Cause swords are like... aerodynamic. Yeah.)
Sword is countered by Recover. (Recovers barriers and healing help them to outlast the sword spammage)
Recover is injured by Break. (Their shield abilities are cut through.)
Break is sniped by Cursor. (The normally bulky break navi's are easy target for thir precision aim.)

I'll point out that the BN6 wheel didn't include recover. Break broke sword.

Quote ()

I'll point out that the BN6 wheel didn't include recover. Break broke sword.

Sword Breakers (is an actual sword-shaped weapon that does just what it's name implies). That's where Capcom got that idea from... And it makes sense, actually.

Sword beats wind... Propeller blades was their reasoning.

Wind beats Cursor because it throws off aim.

Cursor beats Break (metal) because it nails the weakpoints for armor.

-------------------

However, the system you have here makes much more sense. To create a true wheel would be difficult... I would know because I've already done it. What winds up happening is that you have sub-types become elements, and Navis begin having multiple elements. Each element also winds up having multiple strengths and weaknesses, and yet more simply become polar opposites.

It becomes an unholy mess, that actually functions. I'll post what I'm talking about if you need proof.

Go for it. Sounds interesting.

Sub-types, in the games, were elements to begin with. They were only adapted to the former in an attempt to bring more individuality to our navis.

But paladin has the right idea. If sub-types became a second element, then you start having Pokémon situations.

By extension, if we wanted to have sub-types be full blown elements, then duality could no longer exist practically.

Perhaps more limiting, but closer to canon.

*hesitates*

You must realize this RP could NOT use this element table. It was meant for another RP. ToNE's RP.

You've probably also seen it before, as it's on the first page of the ToNE R&D Division topic (if it's still there).

I wouldn't have made this element table if it were not for popular support for a huge increase in elements and options by the members of ToNE. However, once they got what they wanted, they didn't know what they wanted to do with it. (Ergo: it sounded good on paper.)

But the requirements I was handed were:
- Table must include a larger varierty of elements.
- Table must include player created elements.
- All relevant elements must be included in an Element Wheel or Opposition.
- Element relationships must make some sense.
- Normal must stand alone.

Note: And these requirements stemmed from conversations with other ToNE members at various times, and were not given all at once.

This was the result.

Legend:

Element A (stronger than) > (Weaker) Elements
Element A (weaker than) < (Stronger) Elements

Quote ()

Element Table:

Fire > Ice, Wood, Break
Fire < Ice, Aqua, Wind

Aqua > Fire, Break, Sound
Aqua < Elec, Ice, Cursor

Elec > Aqua, Ice, Cursor
Elec < Wood, Ground, Object

Wood > Elec, Sound, Invisible
Wood < Fire, Sword, Ground

Ice > Fire, Aqua, Ground
Ice < Fire, Sound, Elec

Wind > Fire, Ground, Cursor
Wind < Sword, Invisible, Object

Cursor > Break, Invisible, Aqua
Cursor < Wind, Sound, Invisible

Invisible > Sound, Wind, Cursor
Invisible < Cursor, Sword, Wood

Sound > Object, Ice, Cursor
Sound < Wood, Invisible, Aqua

Break > Sword, Ground, Object
Break < Cursor, Fire, Aqua

Sword > Wind, Invisible, Wood
Sword < Break, Object, Elec

Ground > Elec, Object, Wood
Ground < Break, Wind, Ice

Object > Sword, Elec, Wind
Object < Break, Ground, Sound

Light <> Dark

Poison <> Recovery

Normal (no effects)
Bonus (no effects)

Yes, I admit I authored this monster.

And THAT is what happens when you don't say "enough is enough." :wacko:

EDIT:

Quote ()

...If sub-types became a second element, then you start having Pokémon situations.

By extension, if we wanted to have sub-types be full blown elements, then duality could no longer exist practically.

He's correct about both points.

EDIT 2:

Oh, and this mess you see above, was also the result of my ideas and hopes as well. So I get an equal share of the blame for it.

Hmm. Interesting points.

I'm against 2x damage for anything but the 4 original elements, and also for dual-types.

Pokemon is funny, though--especially the new Steel/Dragon. ;p

Somethin' bit off topic:

TOO MANY PEOPLE HAS BREAK TYPES!!

If we were to add something more to the break types...at least give some handicap to other sub-types~. It would be unfair for those who doesn't have break types -__-

Actually, there are about as many break types as sword, wind, cursor, and N/A types right now. Break types are hardly outnumbering the others vastly.

There's not really a subtype you can be that others aren't other than Recovery... there's actually only 1 Recov Navi on the whole board right now, as far as I know. O_O