Then differentiate between Spash Effect and Spread Effect.
Spread: Equal Damage to ? additional secondary targets. Spread Damage is directional. (Such as Shotgun, Spreader, V-Gun, and so on. This is how it worked in MMBN.)
Splash: Half Damage to ? additional secondary targets. Spash Damage is incidental. (Dunno. There were chips that had this effect though.)
Blast: ? Damage to additional secondary targets within range. Blast Damage is radial. (Bombs...)
I can add to that if needed.
Sound reasonable? (just a suggestion)
The "Everything you ever wanted to know" Thread
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A bit overcomplicated. Three different categories for two things that are essentially the same, and one thing that isn't even being brought up as an issue. How would we divide the chips into Spreads, Splashes and Blasts? The only chips that can possibly Splash would be Aqua.
If we made an Aqua chip such as Bubbler Splash while the (ideally) equally-powerful Heatshot gave full-yield Spread damage, it just wouldn't be balanced.
Also, these chips only hit a set number of secondary targets anyway, with the exception of large-radius bombs... I'm not sure how those work.
I propose that the probablility of dealing full spread damage increases with RP quality, much like accuracy. Like so:
Bad RP: Very low chance of full damage
Improving RP: Low chance of full damage
Good RP: Moderate chance of full damage
Wonderful RP: High chance of full damage
Full damage is possible no matter what, but not at all probable in the case of someone with abysmal RP. If full damage isn't dealt, then half damage is dealt instead... This is, of course, all assuming that the chip in question hits a second foe at all.
If we made an Aqua chip such as Bubbler Splash while the (ideally) equally-powerful Heatshot gave full-yield Spread damage, it just wouldn't be balanced.
Also, these chips only hit a set number of secondary targets anyway, with the exception of large-radius bombs... I'm not sure how those work.
I propose that the probablility of dealing full spread damage increases with RP quality, much like accuracy. Like so:
Bad RP: Very low chance of full damage
Improving RP: Low chance of full damage
Good RP: Moderate chance of full damage
Wonderful RP: High chance of full damage
Full damage is possible no matter what, but not at all probable in the case of someone with abysmal RP. If full damage isn't dealt, then half damage is dealt instead... This is, of course, all assuming that the chip in question hits a second foe at all.
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Well, they've not got a standard for how the current damage effect works, so you tell me? 
And the third thing is something we already use, it's a standard for comparison, not an addition. Bombs have a blast radius, do they not? :lol:
And the third thing is something we already use, it's a standard for comparison, not an addition. Bombs have a blast radius, do they not? :lol:
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Depends on the bomb. Minibombs are probably called 'mini' for a reason. A small and very isolated explosion.
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Quote (PaladinGC)
Well, they've not got a standard for how the current damage effect works, so you tell me?
And the third thing is something we already use, it's a standard for comparison, not an addition. Bombs have a blast radius, do they not? :lol:
I actually have no idea how that works. Any mods care to shed some light on how multi-hit Bomb chips such as LilBomb and BigBomb work?
And I don't understand that first part... Care to clarify? ^ ^;
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*cough* Alright... Debate/Explaination time!
Not really. It simply defines a game mechanic in easy-to-understand terms. The mechanics already exist, so why not make them clearly defined and standardized to avoid future confusion and double-standards? There comes a point where you need at least some certainties/constants to base all of your game's variables on: Such as RP quality, and it's effects.
Why be lazy and have a confused mess on your hands that no-one clearly understands when it could be made crystal clear with 3 little lines of text?
Spread attacks would consist of SHOT type attacks like GUNS (and such), as well as a few others. The damage is directional... meaning it is based on what direction the shot was traveling when it impacted and where. (IN RELATIVE TERMS, no grid is needed)
(I'll answer the rest as I go...)
Not exactly...
Splash attacks would cover indirect attacks that cause some sort of lesser side-effect type of damage, and wouldn't necessarily just mean water. For example: Energy bleed-off from a powerful beam weapon would be a form of Splash damage. There is no way that energy bleed-off should ever deal the same damage as a direct hit, because it quite simply isn't as powerful.
Blast damage.... c'mon.... Blast radius? Bombs? Logic.
True.
Also, just like the Cannons do not have Spread Damage, not all bombs would have Blast Damage. As you were implying, it doesn't have to be used for everything.
Well, the problem with this is that, if you're a poor RP'er, then you'll never hit your second target in the first place, end of story. So... you'd have to implement a damage penalty on top of that to even make it work.... now you're suggesting that (or what you're suggesting will result in if implemented), once you can RP well enough to actually hit the target, you only get fractional-damage unless you're an RP God (or someone as good as Skyrender and/or most or all of our Mods), and this idea completely ignores how each attack actually works in practice.... which takes some of the "realism" and "variety" out of the game.
Another thing you may not have considered is this:
If you have differentiated and semi-constant (or at least defined) forms/rules of damage delivery, you'll also have more mechanics to use as a basis for creating a larger variety of Battle Chips and future Sig Attacks. (Which I'm entirely for!)
But...
The flip side is to not get carried away with definitions. That's just as bad as being too vague. The difference is that becoming too specific also limits RP quality or shifts the focus too radically for the current system to work at all. I'm not going to suggest anything even close to that. <_<
In my opinion: I prefer what we have, but we do have some things that need to be addressed... nothing really big, just fairly minor details.
Cool? :lol:
EDIT:
Clarity... That's the entire point.
Quote ()
A bit overcomplicated.
Not really. It simply defines a game mechanic in easy-to-understand terms. The mechanics already exist, so why not make them clearly defined and standardized to avoid future confusion and double-standards? There comes a point where you need at least some certainties/constants to base all of your game's variables on: Such as RP quality, and it's effects.
Why be lazy and have a confused mess on your hands that no-one clearly understands when it could be made crystal clear with 3 little lines of text?
Quote ()
How would we divide the chips into Spreads, Splashes and Blasts?
Spread attacks would consist of SHOT type attacks like GUNS (and such), as well as a few others. The damage is directional... meaning it is based on what direction the shot was traveling when it impacted and where. (IN RELATIVE TERMS, no grid is needed)
(I'll answer the rest as I go...)
Quote ()
The only chips that can possibly Splash would be Aqua.
Not exactly...
Splash attacks would cover indirect attacks that cause some sort of lesser side-effect type of damage, and wouldn't necessarily just mean water. For example: Energy bleed-off from a powerful beam weapon would be a form of Splash damage. There is no way that energy bleed-off should ever deal the same damage as a direct hit, because it quite simply isn't as powerful.
Blast damage.... c'mon.... Blast radius? Bombs? Logic.
Quote ()
Depends on the bomb. Minibombs are probably called 'mini' for a reason. A small and very isolated explosion.
True.
Also, just like the Cannons do not have Spread Damage, not all bombs would have Blast Damage. As you were implying, it doesn't have to be used for everything.
Quote ()
I propose that the probablility of dealing full spread damage increases with RP quality, much like accuracy. Like so:
Bad RP: Very low chance of full damage
Improving RP: Low chance of full damage
Good RP: Moderate chance of full damage
Wonderful RP: High chance of full damage
Full damage is possible no matter what, but not at all probable in the case of someone with abysmal RP. If full damage isn't dealt, then half damage is dealt instead... This is, of course, all assuming that the chip in question hits a second foe at all.
Well, the problem with this is that, if you're a poor RP'er, then you'll never hit your second target in the first place, end of story. So... you'd have to implement a damage penalty on top of that to even make it work.... now you're suggesting that (or what you're suggesting will result in if implemented), once you can RP well enough to actually hit the target, you only get fractional-damage unless you're an RP God (or someone as good as Skyrender and/or most or all of our Mods), and this idea completely ignores how each attack actually works in practice.... which takes some of the "realism" and "variety" out of the game.
Another thing you may not have considered is this:
If you have differentiated and semi-constant (or at least defined) forms/rules of damage delivery, you'll also have more mechanics to use as a basis for creating a larger variety of Battle Chips and future Sig Attacks. (Which I'm entirely for!)
But...
The flip side is to not get carried away with definitions. That's just as bad as being too vague. The difference is that becoming too specific also limits RP quality or shifts the focus too radically for the current system to work at all. I'm not going to suggest anything even close to that. <_<
In my opinion: I prefer what we have, but we do have some things that need to be addressed... nothing really big, just fairly minor details.
Cool? :lol:
EDIT:
Quote ()
shed some light on
Clarity... That's the entire point.
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Alright...
What sort of chips do that? If a beam hits a secondary target, it's because the beam penetrates one foe and touches another. I don't think you'll be able to differentiate Splash from Spread in terms that apply to this forum's mechanics.
You're ignoring my little sidenote, stating that full damage is possible on all points. In fact, which point of the proposed mechanics doesn't make it clear that RP quity merely shifts probability? You don't have to be an RP god for full damage. And it fits with mechanics. If half damage is dealt, that means the splash hit, but just barely, glancing off the second foe without dealing full damage. If full damage is dealt, that means the shot was lined up well, and it hit the second enemy head-on, dealing full damage. It's really quite simple, and it's a way of having the full-damage advocates and the half-damage advocated meet each other halfway.
I got to admit, I didn't like your suggestion at first, but I can see it's pretty well thought out. If you can make a good definition to seperate Splash and Spread, it would work well. I just wanted to make sure you didn't misunderstand mine. =P
Quote ()
Splash attacks would cover indirect attacks that cause some sort of lesser side-effect type of damage, and wouldn't necessarily just mean water. For example: Energy bleed-off from a powerful beam weapon would be a form of Splash damage.
What sort of chips do that? If a beam hits a secondary target, it's because the beam penetrates one foe and touches another. I don't think you'll be able to differentiate Splash from Spread in terms that apply to this forum's mechanics.
Quote ()
Well, the problem with this is that, if you're a poor RP'er, then you'll never hit your second target in the first place, end of story. So... you'd have to implement a damage penalty on top of that to even make it work.... now you're suggesting that (or what you're suggesting will result in if implemented), once you can RP well enough to actually hit the target, you only get fractional-damage unless you're an RP God (or someone as good as Skyrender and/or most or all of our Mods), and this idea completely ignores how each attack actually works in practice.... which takes some of the "realism" and "variety" out of the game.
You're ignoring my little sidenote, stating that full damage is possible on all points. In fact, which point of the proposed mechanics doesn't make it clear that RP quity merely shifts probability? You don't have to be an RP god for full damage. And it fits with mechanics. If half damage is dealt, that means the splash hit, but just barely, glancing off the second foe without dealing full damage. If full damage is dealt, that means the shot was lined up well, and it hit the second enemy head-on, dealing full damage. It's really quite simple, and it's a way of having the full-damage advocates and the half-damage advocated meet each other halfway.
I got to admit, I didn't like your suggestion at first, but I can see it's pretty well thought out. If you can make a good definition to seperate Splash and Spread, it would work well. I just wanted to make sure you didn't misunderstand mine. =P
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Quote ()
I got to admit, I didn't like your suggestion at first, but I can see it's pretty well thought out. If you can make a good definition to seperate Splash and Spread, it would work well. I just wanted to make sure you didn't misunderstand mine.
Fair enough.
And, to start this process, I'll address one of your statements. (bear with me here
)We'll start with splash...
Quote ()
What sort of chips do that?
To my knowledge, there are no chips or enemy attacks that use this fuction in the MMBN universe, period. But, that's fine. We can create them, can we not?
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If a beam hits a secondary target, it's because the beam penetrates one foe and touches another.
Actually... that's not what I said. I wasn't talking about the beam peircing the foe and hitting a second behind him, I was talking about it passing by him, but dealing him energy-wash damage from a near-miss (which is indirect). Again, not a direct hit.
Now, remember your idea about accuracy and damage being governed by RP quality? Splash weapons would do that, and now you know how at least some of them would manage it.
But lets use a literal example...
First: Water.
Lets say that a chip called Wave Bomb 1 exists. The opponent's field is all Sea panels, by the way. When thrown, the bomb will arc up and back down again just like any other bomb and deal damage to it's target when it lands. However, if the bomb lands on a Sea Panel (Sea Terrain is fine. I don't give one wit about single panels, honestly) then it creates a wave of water that spashes upon whoever is standing around the point of impact for some Aqua Damage. The target eats both Aqua and Normal damage, if struck, while the others just take the spashed Aqua Damage.
Now, lets try that again, using Fire...
Lets say that a chip called Wave Bomb 1 exists. The opponent's field is all Lava panels, by the way. When thrown, the bomb will arc up and back down again just like any other bomb and deal damage to it's target when it lands. However, if the bomb lands on a Lave Panel, then it creates a wave of Lava that spashes upon whoever is standing around the point of impact for some Fire Damage. The target eats both Fire and Normal damage, if struck, while the others just take the spashed Fire Damage.
Spread on the other hand... Spread uses either primary OR secondary cluster munitions to cause damage.
Spreader is a shell that fragments into multiple explosive-shells upon impact, dealing DIRECT damage to EACH target in full. Same goes for Heaters, Bubblers, and other fragmentation and cluster weapons. They all put actual munitions on the target, and surroundingn targets for 100% Damage to all targets hit.
Ergo, it hits, splits, THEN explodes, dealing Primary damage to all targets like a M.I.R.V. or Cluster Munition weapon.
Make sense?
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I understood your suggestion perfectly. Is this about right?
Suggestion 1 (Pally): Half or full damage is governed based on chip type; One kind will yield a full-damage Spread, while another will deal half damage in a Splash.
Suggestion 2 (Kingly-kun): Half or full damage is governed by RP quality; A player's chances to deal full splash damage with a chip increases with better RP.
Suggestion 1 (Pally): Half or full damage is governed based on chip type; One kind will yield a full-damage Spread, while another will deal half damage in a Splash.
Suggestion 2 (Kingly-kun): Half or full damage is governed by RP quality; A player's chances to deal full splash damage with a chip increases with better RP.
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We were arguing? (This is news to me... 
)
I thought we were discussing and debating in a freindly manner.
(This is news to me... )I thought we were discussing and debating in a freindly manner.
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Well, either definition fits. Glad to know it was a friendly debate, though; I can get way too far into these things, and take it at a personal level. ^ ^;
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Hmmm...I like the ideas floating around, I do. However, as it has been noted, we don't have any Chips that fall into the "Splash" category. I'd be loathe to implement this without at least a handful(Read...3?) of Splash chips, or else...What's the point? So, Pally, feel free to make a few examples just so the other members can get a better feel for how this would work.
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Done, though I'm hesitant to add damage values for these chips.
Splash Damage Capable Chips:
--Plasma Blast (series): Elec Element, Splash, Break, Single Shot. (Very powerful, and rare as hell...)
Description: Fires an immensly powerful beam containing massive ammounts of energy at the target. The beam radiates an energy-wash into the surrounding area as it passes, dealing lesser ammounts of damage to all who are within a certain distance of the beam (basically, it doesn't have to hit you to kill you). Anything in the path of the beam simply takes huge quantities of damage.
Accuracy is determined by RP Quality. Poor RP quality may result in self-damage when one fails to control the energy...
Chips:
Plasma Blast 1 (90 Elec + Break + Splash)
Plasma Blast 2 (120 Elec + Break + Splash)
Plasma Blast 3 (150 Elec + Break + Splash)
PA: ?
-----------------
--Wave Bomb (series): Normal Element, Panel Triggered Splash, Panel based Element, Single Shot.
Description: Throws a Mini-Bomb type explosive ahead that has a varied effect. If the bomb lands on Normal, or other hard-surface Terrain, it will explode and deal a small ammount of damage to the chosen target if it manages to hit them. However, if the bomb lands on Sea (Aqua), Lava (Fire), or Poison (Normal) terrain, it will cause a secondary splash effect, possibly damaging nearby enemeis, as well as adding the elemental damage to its attack against the primary target if it manages to connect.
Splash Range and Splash Damage are both determined by RP quality. Very poor RP quality may result in dropping the bomb at your own feet...
Chips:
Wave Bomb 1 (40 Null + Panel Rage + P.T. Splash)
Wave Bomb 2 (60 Null + Panel Rage + P.T. Splash)
Wave Bomb 3 (80 Null + Panel Rage + P.T. Splash)
PA: ?
-----------------
Pulsar (series): Normal Element, Object Triggered Splash, Single Shot.
Description: Fires sound-waves at a single target or object. If the attack hits an enemy directly, it deals 100% Damage to that target alone. If the attack hits an object instead (such as rock-cube), it will cause a resonance effect that will send a sound wave in all directions for a short distance causing 50% damage to all enemies caught in the wave's radius.
This attack can be bounced off of walls, ceilings, and floors with good RP, but will always be set off by contact with an Object or Enemy.
Chips: (Carried by Seedbats)
Pulsar 1 (70 Null + O.T. Splash)
Pulsar 2 (90 Null + O.T. Splash)
Pulsar 3 (110 Null + O.T. Splash)
PA:
Big Noise
Splash Damage Capable Chips:
--Plasma Blast (series): Elec Element, Splash, Break, Single Shot. (Very powerful, and rare as hell...)
Description: Fires an immensly powerful beam containing massive ammounts of energy at the target. The beam radiates an energy-wash into the surrounding area as it passes, dealing lesser ammounts of damage to all who are within a certain distance of the beam (basically, it doesn't have to hit you to kill you). Anything in the path of the beam simply takes huge quantities of damage.
Accuracy is determined by RP Quality. Poor RP quality may result in self-damage when one fails to control the energy...
Chips:
Plasma Blast 1 (90 Elec + Break + Splash)
Plasma Blast 2 (120 Elec + Break + Splash)
Plasma Blast 3 (150 Elec + Break + Splash)
PA: ?
-----------------
--Wave Bomb (series): Normal Element, Panel Triggered Splash, Panel based Element, Single Shot.
Description: Throws a Mini-Bomb type explosive ahead that has a varied effect. If the bomb lands on Normal, or other hard-surface Terrain, it will explode and deal a small ammount of damage to the chosen target if it manages to hit them. However, if the bomb lands on Sea (Aqua), Lava (Fire), or Poison (Normal) terrain, it will cause a secondary splash effect, possibly damaging nearby enemeis, as well as adding the elemental damage to its attack against the primary target if it manages to connect.
Splash Range and Splash Damage are both determined by RP quality. Very poor RP quality may result in dropping the bomb at your own feet...
Chips:
Wave Bomb 1 (40 Null + Panel Rage + P.T. Splash)
Wave Bomb 2 (60 Null + Panel Rage + P.T. Splash)
Wave Bomb 3 (80 Null + Panel Rage + P.T. Splash)
PA: ?
-----------------
Pulsar (series): Normal Element, Object Triggered Splash, Single Shot.
Description: Fires sound-waves at a single target or object. If the attack hits an enemy directly, it deals 100% Damage to that target alone. If the attack hits an object instead (such as rock-cube), it will cause a resonance effect that will send a sound wave in all directions for a short distance causing 50% damage to all enemies caught in the wave's radius.
This attack can be bounced off of walls, ceilings, and floors with good RP, but will always be set off by contact with an Object or Enemy.
Chips: (Carried by Seedbats)
Pulsar 1 (70 Null + O.T. Splash)
Pulsar 2 (90 Null + O.T. Splash)
Pulsar 3 (110 Null + O.T. Splash)
PA:
Big Noise