So as people remember from the discord eruption involving mass spitballing, idea-exchanging, and et cetera, I had the (not so) great idea of reanimation to be used as a signature effect, but I was unsure how to list it or even work it at all. I have a few possible ideas for such an effect to be granted to abilities. The idea, simply, is to reanimate foes for the duration of the fight, and turn bodies against one another, rather than soul trap and force viruses to fight indefinitely like pets.
THE MARK
The first, not simple concept was the Mark. The Mark was straightforward. The user marks a virus for death, and if they KO the virus before the debuff wears off, that virus is summoned to battle as an object with one action. Notice I wrote VIRUS. The main focus of this thread is to talk about VIRUS reanimation. Not anything else. Anyways...
Virus reanimation with a mark is simple and effective. The turn order for a 1 turn mark would go as so.
Turn 1 - Necromancer marks Virus 1
Turn 2 - Necromancer deletes Virus 1
Turn 3- Virus 1 is revived and fights for Necromancer.
These would cost anywhere from 30 to 40 signature points for a 1 turn Reanimation mark.
THE BINDING
Binding is a little different than marking. Binds work on already deleted viruses. The user takes an action to begin preparing to revive the virus, and brings them back to life the next turn for a certain duration to fight their former allies. It works like this.
Turn 1 - Necromancer deletes Virus 1
Turn 2 - Necromancer begins Binding for Virus 1
Turn 3 - Virus 1 is bound to Necromancer and revives to fight for Necromancer
Like above, this would be most, if not all the cost of a starting signature attack.
THE POOL (Tiefy's Concept)
This is where things get fun, rather than simple. The signature effect is given a 1-to-1 Point to HP pool. For every one point into your Necromancy Signature, you can revive a Virus with that much health to fight for you. For example, a virus with 40 HP can be revived by a necromancer with a 40 point signature. However, the advantage of this form means that late game, a 120 point signature necromancer can have three 40 HP viruses revived at once. The points will, of course, recharge upon the summon's death and after cooldown. Confused? Lemme demonstrate.
Necromancer has 120 signature points.
Turn 1 - Necromancer deletes Virus 1 and 2, each having 60 HP
Turn 2 - Necromancer revives Virus 1 using 60 Necro points.
Turn 3 - Necromancer revives Virus 2 using 60 Necro points, too.
Now Necromancer has two viruses, and their signature is charging.
Thanks again to Tiefy for this idea.
Think you can help balance this? Think you can give these effects a proper place? Don't like me and want to tell me that I'm a smelly doofus? Go ahead and reply (except that last part, I can't stop you, but it's unwelcome). The more minds we get churning at this effect, the more likely it is that your necromancing dreams could come true.
Necromancy: Will it work?
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Intial thoughts:
We have a ban list of effects that contains charm and possession. I don't know the full reasoning behind this or what led to those being listed; they've been that way as long as I've been here, but it's something to consider when chewing over an effect like this. Whatever the main breaking reasons were for banning those types of effects, it may be applicable here. Check with others who know more about the history of those effects.
Mark suggestion: Does it count as a status effect? Does it time out if the virus isn't killed within a certain amount of time? Who controls the reanimated summon (i.e. you, or the mod)? Do viruses with fixed pattern behaviour still have to abide by that when raised by this effect (I raised a hardhead for one turn. It has one action, that action must be guarding. useful.)?
Binding suggestion: Is this intended to be a one turn per unit buy in like above? If so, same questions apply. Does the signature go on cooldown when you use it, when the virus is raised, or when the virus is destroyed? What are the limitations on what viruses can and cannot be raised, with this one?
Pool suggestion: Does the pool stack, like strengthen, or is it intended to be in stand-alone instances? Can it be passive like strengthen? How long does a recalled virus last? Can a re-killed or timed out summon be reanimated a second time, or is it once per virus?
I presume, regardless of duration, all summons are intended to rest at the end of combat - no building an army of zombie mets. As cute as that would be.
We have a ban list of effects that contains charm and possession. I don't know the full reasoning behind this or what led to those being listed; they've been that way as long as I've been here, but it's something to consider when chewing over an effect like this. Whatever the main breaking reasons were for banning those types of effects, it may be applicable here. Check with others who know more about the history of those effects.
Mark suggestion: Does it count as a status effect? Does it time out if the virus isn't killed within a certain amount of time? Who controls the reanimated summon (i.e. you, or the mod)? Do viruses with fixed pattern behaviour still have to abide by that when raised by this effect (I raised a hardhead for one turn. It has one action, that action must be guarding. useful.)?
Binding suggestion: Is this intended to be a one turn per unit buy in like above? If so, same questions apply. Does the signature go on cooldown when you use it, when the virus is raised, or when the virus is destroyed? What are the limitations on what viruses can and cannot be raised, with this one?
Pool suggestion: Does the pool stack, like strengthen, or is it intended to be in stand-alone instances? Can it be passive like strengthen? How long does a recalled virus last? Can a re-killed or timed out summon be reanimated a second time, or is it once per virus?
I presume, regardless of duration, all summons are intended to rest at the end of combat - no building an army of zombie mets. As cute as that would be.
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Regarding the charm and possession bans, I don't think this Necromancy effect would be an issue because you'd still have to kill the virus first before it can be used, unlike theoretical charm and possession effects.
That said, I think the majority of the desired outcome can already be achieved through Object Summoning and RP fluff to make it look like a fallen enemy. It's more expensive, but arguably more useful, and it avoids having to create and balance a rather complicated mechanic that'll likely only be used by 1, maybe 2 player Navis at most (similar to NS's Mimicry effect suggestion).
That said, I think the majority of the desired outcome can already be achieved through Object Summoning and RP fluff to make it look like a fallen enemy. It's more expensive, but arguably more useful, and it avoids having to create and balance a rather complicated mechanic that'll likely only be used by 1, maybe 2 player Navis at most (similar to NS's Mimicry effect suggestion).
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As Lurch pointed out with all but the pool system, yes, a necromancer would only be able to summon one per full charge of Necromancy Marks or Bindings. In short, you could double the points on a signature to either get a second mark per same turn, or extend a mark's duration by one turn.
Regarding marks, they would disappear after one turn and need re-application. Regarding binding, the cooldown starts when the virus is fully raised, considered active the entirety of the turn until the virus is reanimated.
To regards of controlling the virus, it would differ depending on fluff of the navi. If the navi raising the virus in question uses some sort of direct control, (I.E. my future navi Driquist), it would be to the player to access the virus's move pool to attack. For those who would instead raise a zombie, it would be to the Mod's discretion. I was considering adding that as a separate effect to necromancy under 'Direct Necromancy' and 'Indirect Necromancy' being different point values.
In regards to the Pool, let me hammer some things out.
-Viruses reanimated by Pool Summons cannot be re-summoned.
-Viruses cannot be strengthened, points in the pool are only used to match the HP value of the virus.
-Viruses will time out based on the duration stat of the Pool, with a set number of points (of which I can't ever find balance for) determining summon duration beyond one turn (that one turn given free to all necromancy types). Each additional stack of duration gives 1 extra turn to reanimated viruses. While seemingly bumming early game, the late game virus necromancy is a decent alternative, if not a bit hard to build around, for virus busting enthusiasts.
Hope that clears some stuff up. This isn't intended to replace summons or provide a better alternative, it instead is supposed to be a totally standalone concept to standard summons, and intended to draw crowds of those who'd be willing to use such a theme in any build they have.
Regarding marks, they would disappear after one turn and need re-application. Regarding binding, the cooldown starts when the virus is fully raised, considered active the entirety of the turn until the virus is reanimated.
To regards of controlling the virus, it would differ depending on fluff of the navi. If the navi raising the virus in question uses some sort of direct control, (I.E. my future navi Driquist), it would be to the player to access the virus's move pool to attack. For those who would instead raise a zombie, it would be to the Mod's discretion. I was considering adding that as a separate effect to necromancy under 'Direct Necromancy' and 'Indirect Necromancy' being different point values.
In regards to the Pool, let me hammer some things out.
-Viruses reanimated by Pool Summons cannot be re-summoned.
-Viruses cannot be strengthened, points in the pool are only used to match the HP value of the virus.
-Viruses will time out based on the duration stat of the Pool, with a set number of points (of which I can't ever find balance for) determining summon duration beyond one turn (that one turn given free to all necromancy types). Each additional stack of duration gives 1 extra turn to reanimated viruses. While seemingly bumming early game, the late game virus necromancy is a decent alternative, if not a bit hard to build around, for virus busting enthusiasts.
Hope that clears some stuff up. This isn't intended to replace summons or provide a better alternative, it instead is supposed to be a totally standalone concept to standard summons, and intended to draw crowds of those who'd be willing to use such a theme in any build they have.
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Question regarding the pool was actually in relation to how it works itself, with reference to strengthen being used as a parallel: Strengthen is something you buy an amount of, one to one, and it stacks up in a pool and sits there until used. It can be passive, and it all just adds into the same pool which can be drawn from in freely variable amounts.
It's unclear how the pool functions, if I have a passive signature that generates 10 pool points per turn, as opposed to if I have three independent signatures that each generate 40 pool points on separate cooldowns.
It's great to make examples that demonstrate 'intended use' as it were, but the devil is in the details of the fringe and unintended cases.
It's easy enough to say '40 point signature generates a 40 point pool, and you kill a met, and then raise it and the pool is being used/held up by the raised met' But that only covers the express 'ideal' use cases.
The 'cooldown' for a signature begins when a target is raised, but how does that work if what the signature itself is doing is generating a pool?
Here's the case I'd like you to contemplate:
I've got a passive signature that generates 10 necromancy points per turn.
I've got an active signature that generates 80 pool points immediately, 2tcd.
I've got an active signature that generates 50 pool points immediately, and gives me a 30hp barrier, 2tcd.
I've got an active signature that generates 10 pool points immediately, and gives me a status cure immediately, 1tcd.
Turn 1:
I use my first sig, and now have 90 pool points.
I kill a 40hp met.
Turn 2: (Is my first sig on cooldown yet, or is it 'still active and not cooling yet')
I use my barrier sig.
I raise the 40Hp met.
I now have 110 points in pool, and 40 points tied up in a raised met.
(Are the points used determined to be from particular sig, or is the pool now non-specified? how does that work in regard to signature cooldowns? Is my Barrier sig on cooldown immediately, because it generated a barrier effect along with pool points? Is it on cooldown immediately because its points were used to raise a met? Were its points used to raise a met or were they not? Does that matter? Is the sig not on cooldown yet becuase it's tied up in the met - presuming that its points specifically were used from the pool, and not the first signatures?)
I kill a virus with 160Hp
Turn 3:
Met was re-killed (Are its 40 points 'freed'; do they return to my pool, or are they gone?)
I use my status cure sig
Do I now have 130 pool points, or do I have 170? Do I actually have some other amount that I've not contemplated?
Can I raise the 160Hp met form last turn or not?
What is the cooldown status of my three signatures?
It's unclear how the pool functions, if I have a passive signature that generates 10 pool points per turn, as opposed to if I have three independent signatures that each generate 40 pool points on separate cooldowns.
It's great to make examples that demonstrate 'intended use' as it were, but the devil is in the details of the fringe and unintended cases.
It's easy enough to say '40 point signature generates a 40 point pool, and you kill a met, and then raise it and the pool is being used/held up by the raised met' But that only covers the express 'ideal' use cases.
The 'cooldown' for a signature begins when a target is raised, but how does that work if what the signature itself is doing is generating a pool?
Here's the case I'd like you to contemplate:
I've got a passive signature that generates 10 necromancy points per turn.
I've got an active signature that generates 80 pool points immediately, 2tcd.
I've got an active signature that generates 50 pool points immediately, and gives me a 30hp barrier, 2tcd.
I've got an active signature that generates 10 pool points immediately, and gives me a status cure immediately, 1tcd.
Turn 1:
I use my first sig, and now have 90 pool points.
I kill a 40hp met.
Turn 2: (Is my first sig on cooldown yet, or is it 'still active and not cooling yet')
I use my barrier sig.
I raise the 40Hp met.
I now have 110 points in pool, and 40 points tied up in a raised met.
(Are the points used determined to be from particular sig, or is the pool now non-specified? how does that work in regard to signature cooldowns? Is my Barrier sig on cooldown immediately, because it generated a barrier effect along with pool points? Is it on cooldown immediately because its points were used to raise a met? Were its points used to raise a met or were they not? Does that matter? Is the sig not on cooldown yet becuase it's tied up in the met - presuming that its points specifically were used from the pool, and not the first signatures?)
I kill a virus with 160Hp
Turn 3:
Met was re-killed (Are its 40 points 'freed'; do they return to my pool, or are they gone?)
I use my status cure sig
Do I now have 130 pool points, or do I have 170? Do I actually have some other amount that I've not contemplated?
Can I raise the 160Hp met form last turn or not?
What is the cooldown status of my three signatures?
last edited by Phreeze
Three months later when Tapajank is finally gone, I'll respond now.
With the sheer clutter you've created, it's hard to see where it's all going without having to take apart each individual skill and look at them. I would trust at this point, with someone who has four signature skills dedicated to necromancy, they'd need this level of necromancy pool size to raise a victim virus or summoned object against the enemy. After all, level scaling is a thing here, if I recall.
The inquiries about the pool were spot on at being separated by cooldown. If a portion of a skill's necromancy points go to a revival, that cooldown is held until virus death. In turn 2, you've screwed the pooch so to speak, given that your 80 point sig was used to revive a met. In this situation, you should have used your barrier sig to add to your pool, and now you have two sigs on a suspended cooldown until you revive another virus less than or equal to the remaining points per signature. You'd need to spend 81 points to start your cooldown after spending and after your raised viruses' deaths.
I see the points you raise with this example, and it's something I'd not considered. One one hand, you've got an incredible cooldown god who can constantly erect barriers and heal, as well as get points to summon all at once, or you get a long cooldown chain that removes most of a base kit's viability and kills any fun to be had, so I present a few alternatives to mitigate the potential virus sweeping-slash-horde calling builds or potential uselessness.
1). Necromancy points are a separate, passive-exclusive that cannot be used in active or triggers with auxiliary effects aside from point gain. (I.E., the only active you get is the first sig. The other two have to be scrapped)
2). Limiting a necromancy skill to one sig per character, unless acquired by a cross, but raising the cap of necromancy points on active sigs to compensate.
3). Requiring triggers to all necromancy effects that are not conjunctive. (I.E., heal and get some points, delete a met and get some points), and outlaw passive necromancy sigs.
With the sheer clutter you've created, it's hard to see where it's all going without having to take apart each individual skill and look at them. I would trust at this point, with someone who has four signature skills dedicated to necromancy, they'd need this level of necromancy pool size to raise a victim virus or summoned object against the enemy. After all, level scaling is a thing here, if I recall.
The inquiries about the pool were spot on at being separated by cooldown. If a portion of a skill's necromancy points go to a revival, that cooldown is held until virus death. In turn 2, you've screwed the pooch so to speak, given that your 80 point sig was used to revive a met. In this situation, you should have used your barrier sig to add to your pool, and now you have two sigs on a suspended cooldown until you revive another virus less than or equal to the remaining points per signature. You'd need to spend 81 points to start your cooldown after spending and after your raised viruses' deaths.
I see the points you raise with this example, and it's something I'd not considered. One one hand, you've got an incredible cooldown god who can constantly erect barriers and heal, as well as get points to summon all at once, or you get a long cooldown chain that removes most of a base kit's viability and kills any fun to be had, so I present a few alternatives to mitigate the potential virus sweeping-slash-horde calling builds or potential uselessness.
1). Necromancy points are a separate, passive-exclusive that cannot be used in active or triggers with auxiliary effects aside from point gain. (I.E., the only active you get is the first sig. The other two have to be scrapped)
2). Limiting a necromancy skill to one sig per character, unless acquired by a cross, but raising the cap of necromancy points on active sigs to compensate.
3). Requiring triggers to all necromancy effects that are not conjunctive. (I.E., heal and get some points, delete a met and get some points), and outlaw passive necromancy sigs.
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The thing I'm noting is that, while you might see this as creating clutter, this kind of analysis is absolutely necessary for actually testing an effect and checking it for unintended or confusing behaviour, or undefined events within it. We cannot just test the best-case intended ideal and call it a day, because players won't do that.
For example; you say that in my example, the 80 point sig was used to raise the little met, but... was it? Who says that it was? The way the proposal was made certainly didn't.
Anyway, to look at your suggestions:
Signature effects can be built together, and aside from nerfs (which are more of a tool with cost, than they are sig effects themselves), can be passive. Putting special limitations that mark this off from other signature effects, and making a list of extra rules surrounding the use of it, and it alone, is just a very bad idea to begin with.
I still think the effect is interesting, but creating extra rules about it being passive only, or banned from being passive, or necessarily stand-alone, etc., is not the way to balance this, I don't feel.
My initial posts asking pointed questions were more intended to point out things that the proposal hadn't defined properly, and would need to, not to say that they were problems, per se. If you can put up a proposal that does define the effect enough to address all of those non-standard and messy situations in some way, we can workshop forward from there.
Overall, I feel that suspended cooldown is a bad way to go. It's just messy.
I think that the raising effect should be well defined and self-contained, with the cooldown for the signature being started when the signature is used, like anything else.
This might mean that for the Marking and Binding suggestions, what we pay for in the signature is turns of service, in fixed increments. A valid target for a bind would be a deleted virus, but there would be no reason it could not be built into another signature. A valid target for a mark would be a living virus, again, with n reason it couldn't be built in to other things.
What we would need to define in a deliberate and closed manner would be how the raising works, and how the virus in question behaves, as well as how long different things last.
For example: If we did this via a mark, the signature Cost, might be a fixed amount per virus, per turn, like many of our other signature effects. Ideally, the cost would be high enough that you couldn't feasibly make Passive more than one virus for one round, but that can be debated.
What we would then define in a more direct way would be things like: the mark lasts only for the turn that it is used, and has no other effect on its own. A virus deleted while marked will raise at the end of the turn/beginning of the next turn, and behave in a certain way - this might be that it acts as your ally but is under mod control, or it might be that you can direct it to attack certain things, but the mod determines how it goes about following your orders, etc., but it needs to be firmly defined in some way.
Binding, similarly, would see you paying for turns of service per virus and per round, with the raising being defined in a similarly clear manner.
A pool system would need to function differently, but again, the important thing that we'd need to do would be to be clear and ordered about what exactly you spend points on, what is predefined, and how it works. In the case of a pool, the signature wold still need to go on cooldown when ti was used. This means several things for how we then have to define the rest. For example: You pay pool points equal to the hp of the deleted virus, per turn of service and per virus; it would quickly grow exhaustively expensive if you wanted to raise multiple deleted viruses for multiple turns, and it would be more difficult to raise chunkier ones, but the rules for what you can get and how long you get it for are still well defined.
The activation of the pool would need to be defined as well, since it cannot time to the activation of the signature. For example, it could be free, in the same way that Strengthen application is free, or it could require an action; in the post action-cut system that would be a heavy, heavy cost.
For example; you say that in my example, the 80 point sig was used to raise the little met, but... was it? Who says that it was? The way the proposal was made certainly didn't.
Anyway, to look at your suggestions:
Signature effects can be built together, and aside from nerfs (which are more of a tool with cost, than they are sig effects themselves), can be passive. Putting special limitations that mark this off from other signature effects, and making a list of extra rules surrounding the use of it, and it alone, is just a very bad idea to begin with.
I still think the effect is interesting, but creating extra rules about it being passive only, or banned from being passive, or necessarily stand-alone, etc., is not the way to balance this, I don't feel.
My initial posts asking pointed questions were more intended to point out things that the proposal hadn't defined properly, and would need to, not to say that they were problems, per se. If you can put up a proposal that does define the effect enough to address all of those non-standard and messy situations in some way, we can workshop forward from there.
Overall, I feel that suspended cooldown is a bad way to go. It's just messy.
I think that the raising effect should be well defined and self-contained, with the cooldown for the signature being started when the signature is used, like anything else.
This might mean that for the Marking and Binding suggestions, what we pay for in the signature is turns of service, in fixed increments. A valid target for a bind would be a deleted virus, but there would be no reason it could not be built into another signature. A valid target for a mark would be a living virus, again, with n reason it couldn't be built in to other things.
What we would need to define in a deliberate and closed manner would be how the raising works, and how the virus in question behaves, as well as how long different things last.
For example: If we did this via a mark, the signature Cost, might be a fixed amount per virus, per turn, like many of our other signature effects. Ideally, the cost would be high enough that you couldn't feasibly make Passive more than one virus for one round, but that can be debated.
What we would then define in a more direct way would be things like: the mark lasts only for the turn that it is used, and has no other effect on its own. A virus deleted while marked will raise at the end of the turn/beginning of the next turn, and behave in a certain way - this might be that it acts as your ally but is under mod control, or it might be that you can direct it to attack certain things, but the mod determines how it goes about following your orders, etc., but it needs to be firmly defined in some way.
Binding, similarly, would see you paying for turns of service per virus and per round, with the raising being defined in a similarly clear manner.
A pool system would need to function differently, but again, the important thing that we'd need to do would be to be clear and ordered about what exactly you spend points on, what is predefined, and how it works. In the case of a pool, the signature wold still need to go on cooldown when ti was used. This means several things for how we then have to define the rest. For example: You pay pool points equal to the hp of the deleted virus, per turn of service and per virus; it would quickly grow exhaustively expensive if you wanted to raise multiple deleted viruses for multiple turns, and it would be more difficult to raise chunkier ones, but the rules for what you can get and how long you get it for are still well defined.
The activation of the pool would need to be defined as well, since it cannot time to the activation of the signature. For example, it could be free, in the same way that Strengthen application is free, or it could require an action; in the post action-cut system that would be a heavy, heavy cost.