The Halo

Quote (Hiko)

Hey, "whiny bastards" we may be in your eyes, but we're probably some of Valve's most loyal customers and most avid players.

Do you think there is a single person in existence who seriously thought Valve approved of idling? Even one?

Personally, I have a hard time thinking of people who accepts the terms of agreement to an online game, breaks it, and then proceeds to whine over the punishment, a loyal fan of the game producers.

Quote (Drakim)

Quote (Hiko)

Hey, "whiny bastards" we may be in your eyes, but we're probably some of Valve's most loyal customers and most avid players.

Do you think there is a single person in existence who seriously thought Valve approved of idling? Even one?

Personally, I have a hard time thinking of people who accepts the terms of agreement to an online game, breaks it, and then proceeds to whine over the punishment, a loyal fan of the game producers.

I waited 2-3 months before I started using it. I tried it at first, and I thought it was sketchy. Then once my entire friends list started using it, I figured hey, what the hell. Hadn't heard anything else about it.

Well, to be honest, I'm not sure if I cared that much. Valve had already admitted that they'd screwed up with the drop system, so I thought they wouldn't really give a flying f*** if we (or f00l) found an intelligent way around the issue.

Also, do -you- read the ToS to every game you play? I sure as hell don't. Call me ignorant, but I'm pretty sure that that's not the norm.

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What I am so amazed about is that people aren't giving idlers more shit. Seriously, while you are there playing and earning weapons, they are simply logging in and standing there getting their weapons. Dumb enough. Oh wait, they made an app that makes this assholery easier. Why isn't the community exploding in rage against them? D: Is the community so easily bribed by the prospect of a free lunch?

That was the scrubbiest paragraph I've read on these forums.

[quote=Hiko]

Quote (Hiko,Sep 14 2009)

Also, do -you- read the ToS to every game you play? I sure as hell don't. Call me ignorant, but I'm pretty sure that that's not the norm.

I would read them all, except 99% of them all say the exact same thing. And do you know what just about 99% of them say? Exactly what Drakim is explaining to you about third party programs.

[quote=Leon]

Quote (Hiko,Sep 14 2009)

Quote (Hiko,Sep 14 2009)

Also, do -you- read the ToS to every game you play? I sure as hell don't. Call me ignorant, but I'm pretty sure that that's not the norm.

I would read them all, except 99% of them all say the exact same thing. And do you know what just about 99% of them say? Exactly what Drakim is explaining to you about third party programs.

Mmhmm. So you don't read them either, lol.

No, I don't. When I first started using a computer I did, and now a days all of them say pretty much the same thing in more or less words: Use only as intended, we're not responsible if shit hits the fan, don't try to reverse engineer our product.

That idler program? Pretty sure that would count as something that was made by reverse engineering the client. Anyone who didn't have their head up their ass would be able to figure that out.

Also, I daresay that I have given valve more money than your tf2 buddies, because I play far more than one good, but not amazingly great, fps game.

Quote (Leon)

No, I don't. When I first started using a computer I did, and now a days all of them say pretty much the same thing in more or less words: Use only as intended, we're not responsible if shit hits the fan, don't try to reverse engineer our product.

That idler program? Pretty sure that would count as something that was made by reverse engineering the client. Anyone who didn't have their head up their ass would be able to figure that out.

Also, I daresay that I have given valve more money than your tf2 buddies, because I play far more than one good, but not amazingly great, fps game.

What is this, a dick-waving contest over who pays VALVe more money? :'D

Quote (Hiko)

I waited 2-3 months before I started using it. I tried it at first, and I thought it was sketchy. Then once my entire friends list started using it, I figured hey, what the hell. Hadn't heard anything else about it.

Well, to be honest, I'm not sure if I cared that much. Valve had already admitted that they'd screwed up with the drop system, so I thought they wouldn't really give a flying f*** if we (or f00l) found an intelligent way around the issue.

Also, do -you- read the ToS to every game you play? I sure as hell don't. Call me ignorant, but I'm pretty sure that that's not the norm.

I can understand people have different stories, and not everybody hopped on the "free items" bandwagon instantly. But, imagine if we were talking about aimbots here. Would you think it okay to use an aimbot if all your buddies did, and Valve hadn't said anything for a long while?

Personally, for me, it's as clear as day. I would be here calling it cheating even if Valve hadn't taken action. Idling gives people an unfair advantage. The idling application gives them an even greater advantage, and breaks the terms of service.


Lastly, I dearly hope you don't think that not reading the ToS means you don't have to obey it. Realize that by just spamming the next button and thinking "whatever", you are still subject to them, and if you break them without knowing all the blame goes on you for not knowing the rules. "I didn't know the law because I ignored it" is not a valid plea, no matter the norm. D:

Quote (Drakim)

Quote (Hiko)

I waited 2-3 months before I started using it. I tried it at first, and I thought it was sketchy. Then once my entire friends list started using it, I figured hey, what the hell. Hadn't heard anything else about it.

Well, to be honest, I'm not sure if I cared that much. Valve had already admitted that they'd screwed up with the drop system, so I thought they wouldn't really give a flying f*** if we (or f00l) found an intelligent way around the issue.

Also, do -you- read the ToS to every game you play? I sure as hell don't. Call me ignorant, but I'm pretty sure that that's not the norm.

I can understand people have different stories, and not everybody hopped on the "free items" bandwagon instantly. But, imagine if we were talking about aimbots here. Would you think it okay to use an aimbot if all your buddies did, and Valve hadn't said anything for a long while?

Personally, for me, it's as clear as day. I would be here calling it cheating even if Valve hadn't taken action. Idling gives people an unfair advantage. The idling application gives them an even greater advantage, and breaks the terms of service.


Lastly, I dearly hope you don't think that not reading the ToS means you don't have to obey it. Realize that by just spamming the next button and thinking "whatever", you are still subject to them, and if you break them without knowing all the blame goes on you for not knowing the rules. "I didn't know the law because I ignored it" is not a valid plea, no matter the norm. D:

You're probably right... but Valve takes immediate action on aimbots. It's pretty much a VAC ban for that sort of hacking as soon as you're caught with it. We had months and months of idling, hundreds of hours of the time, and they didn't seem to take action so I figured I didn't want to be left behind. Aimbots are obviously game-altering, even to those currently in the game, and the community will agree with the punishment given to the hacker. With idling, no one can really tell because the whole thing is messed up anyways, and you're not supposed to be able to tell the difference between achievement and initial weapons, and hats don't change a damn thing.

Also, I bought TF2 over two years ago. I don't even know where the ToS thing was there. Did they make me scroll through it, or?

Quote (Hiko)

You're probably right... but Valve takes immediate action on aimbots. It's pretty much a VAC ban for that sort of hacking as soon as you're caught with it. We had months and months of idling, hundreds of hours of the time, and they didn't seem to take action so I figured I didn't want to be left behind. Aimbots are obviously game-altering, even to those currently in the game, and the community will agree with the punishment given to the hacker. With idling, no one can really tell because the whole thing is messed up anyways, and you're not supposed to be able to tell the difference between achievement and initial weapons, and hats don't change a damn thing.

Also, I bought TF2 over two years ago. I don't even know where the ToS thing was there. Did they make me scroll through it, or?

Hm, but aimbots are common over many games. Nobody makes an online FPS and doesn't think about the possibility of cheating aimbots. It's the oldest cheat in the book.

Idling is a new, and very specific, sort of unfair advantage.

Still, I feel the comparison isn't far off. What if aimbots were completely unheard of, and aimbotter users used arguments like "come on, Valve hasn't said anything before now and the aimbot doesn't do anything you can't do manually with a mouse."

I agree that the new weapons are kinda screwed in balance (although I find myself switching back more and more for specific situations.) but surely two wrongs doesn't make a right. That's sounds too much like the aimbotters saying "aw, come on, the aiming system in this game is broken already".

Also, if you read Valve's TF2 blog, it explains pretty well why their system is so broken and why they aren't doing anything about it. To put it short, all the alernatives are even more broken. If the system based itself on anything else but playing time then nightmares would ensure. Valve has no way to verify the performance reported by third party servers. Basically, you could make a server that does nothing but report you constantly owning everybody and earning weapons. It's only (due to how steam works) your playing time that Valve can accurately monitor.

Personally, I don't think the current system is THAT terrible. It's a lot better than achievement based, where heavies would suddenly start meleeing while ubered to get that rare achievement. That actually happened to me and I sure was a pissed medic for the rest of the day :/

(This system is fair according to the ideology of the Joker in the Dark Knight. And you wouldn't argue with him, would you? :o)

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Hm, but aimbots are common over many games. Nobody makes an online FPS and doesn't think about the possibility of cheating aimbots. It's the oldest cheat in the book.

Idling is a new, and very specific, sort of unfair advantage.

"Sort of unfair." made me lol. There is nothing unfair about idling as far as I'm concerned, but you are free to try and prove this isn't so.

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Still, I feel the comparison isn't far off. What if aimbots were completely unheard of, and aimbotter users used arguments like "come on, Valve hasn't said anything before now and the aimbot doesn't do anything you can't do manually with a mouse."

Yes, yes it is very fucking far off. Aimbots remove a skill tested by the game (aiming... duh). Idle hax removes having to log in. Unless you are part of the WoW generation, I think you can see how being logged on is not a skill, and removing it does not make the game worse.

Aimbots are like steroids. Idling is like kreatin or something.

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I agree that the new weapons are kinda screwed in balance (although I find myself switching back more and more for specific situations.) but surely two wrongs doesn't make a right. That's sounds too much like the aimbotters saying "aw, come on, the aiming system in this game is broken already".

However aiming isn't broken, and claiming so pretty much proves that you have room to improve. On the other hand, the unlock system is pretty much proven to be broken. Hell, that's your next paragraph.

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Also, if you read Valve's TF2 blog, it explains pretty well why their system is so broken and why they aren't doing anything about it. To put it short, all the alernatives are even more broken.

3 random solutions:

3.) Timer based on time since registering, instead of being logged on. This eliminates idling since you don't need to idle to get new stuff.
2.) Achievements+Release everything at the same time. Although, there would be achievement grinding, but everyone would be grinding their favorites (what they are playing anyway), instead of grinding the new shit. Obviously, it's too late for this now.
1.) Just give out all the stuff without the need to grind. Unlocking in a competitive multiplayer shooter is retarded. If you want to show off your e-peen, achievements are still there for you.

There are dozens more, I bet.

Quote (Knight)

Unless you are part of the WoW generation, I think you can see how being logged on is not a skill, and removing it does not make the game worse.

Is to. You have to get past a bloody ice dragon everytime you log in. :x

Wow, quite an active argument. Too bad it's all over SILLY HATS IN A VIDEO GAME.
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>.>
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BONK!

It's about the PRINCIPLE.
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MAGGOT!

Yes. The principle that you use the game as it was intended and designed, and not piss around with third party bullshit, regardless of whether or not you think a program that is simulating you doing something that you aren't is cheating.

End of argument. No really, that's the bottom line. Get over it.

Quote (Leon)

Yes. The principle that you use the game as it was intended and designed, and not piss around with third party bullshit, regardless of whether or not you think a program that is simulating you doing something that you aren't is cheating.

End of argument. No really, that's the bottom line. Get over it.

Basically a more articulate version of "/thread"
just because you say that your opinion is completely right and final doesn't mean it is so O:

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Yes. The principle that you use the game as it was intended and designed, and not piss around with third party bullshit, regardless of whether or not you think a program that is simulating you doing something that you aren't is cheating.

Would have been true before WoW came out and made 3rd party interface modification not only legal but encouraged.

Would be true if you couldn't add skins, for example, which actually do change the game.

Would be true if you couldn't make/use macros.

Would be true if Valve didn't change it's policy 3 months after giving the green lights.

Would be true if the punishment wasn't sorted out retroactively.

Would be true if this achieved anything aside from bringing idle servers back and pissing off half the community. Hell, they even pissed me off and I've only played about twice on a friend's account.

It doesn't matter why they did what they did. What does matter is that the only thing they achieved by banning the idle app is bringing idle servers back, making people who already got the stuff they wanted idle again, pissing off half the member base and giving a goddamn hat (that is BTW buggy for spies) to the other half, most of which already quit before they had to idle, used achievement_idle,or don't give a damn about hats anyway.

Pretty much like shooting Santa for trespassing imo. You had the right, but that doesn't mean that it was a good idea.

Quote (Knight)

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Yes. The principle that you use the game as it was intended and designed, and not piss around with third party bullshit, regardless of whether or not you think a program that is simulating you doing something that you aren't is cheating.

Would have been true before WoW came out and made 3rd party interface modification not only legal but encouraged.

Would be true if you couldn't add skins, for example, which actually do change the game.

Would be true if you couldn't make/use macros.

Would be true if Valve didn't change it's policy 3 months after giving the green lights.

Would be true if the punishment wasn't sorted out retroactively.

Would be true if this achieved anything aside from bringing idle servers back and pissing off half the community. Hell, they even pissed me off and I've only played about twice on a friend's account.

It doesn't matter why they did what they did. What does matter is that the only thing they achieved by banning the idle app is bringing idle servers back, making people who already got the stuff they wanted idle again, pissing off half the member base and giving a goddamn hat (that is BTW buggy for spies) to the other half, most of which already quit before they had to idle, used achievement_idle,or don't give a damn about hats anyway.

Pretty much like shooting Santa for trespassing imo. You had the right, but that doesn't mean that it was a good idea.

This. If we're going to use advanced 4chan lingo, that is ;D

Here's a question: If the hats are only cosmetic, and the majority of the reason people used the idler were to just get a cosmetic item, and people are able to upload mods that change the skins of the models, why is this argument still going on when you can just make a skin to show you with whatever hat you ever wanted to wear? Who friggin cares if other people can see your hat? It's not like it says anything about your skill in the game. All it says is that a program somewhere decided to randomly give one to you, and if the people who're butthurt about this need that much of an e-peen boost, they need to grow the fuck up.

Yes, the system is bad.

Yes, the halos were an even worse idea.

And no, silence does not mean that they approved of the program.

But guess what? The little window filled with text that 90% of the people who installed the game didn't read but agreed to anyways said that you agreed that Valve had the right to change any of their policies at any time, with or without notice. It's up to the users to keep up to date with their ToS, not Valve. When they made the change, they found a whole lot of people who were violating the agreement that said if you violated it your account on Steam would be locked. Instead of actually following procedure they opted for the course of action that would enforce the policy, regardless of if people knew of it, and still allow those same people who were breaking the rules to play their game.

If you don't agree with the new Subscriber agreement, or anything that Valve has done within their legal right to change their own game and/or policies, then stop playing. It's that simple. If people really want to get back at Valve for taking away a collection of pixels from their characters in a, need I remind you, video game, then boycott them. However, if you want to keep on playing Team Fortress 2, then quit whining about it and just fucking play the game.

Also, I've checked into things and the methods for Steam Cloud are actually in the SDK, so Drunken_F00l probably did go about getting the code required for the program in a perfectly legal way. That doesn't change the fact that Valve introduced the hats as incentives for people to play their game. Having the exact same chance to get the items without playing the game as someone who is actually playing the game defeats the entire purpose of giving these incentives to play in the first place. If they were seriously okay with people getting these items without actually using their product then they might as well just given them all out at once for free instead of making them unlocks. But, they didn't. They made the drop system, despite all of its flaws, so that people would continue to play their game. I know I'm repeating myself a lot here, but hopefully that'll get the point across that you are not entitled to items that you didn't even play the game to get, regardless of how much you didn't want to play long enough for a chance that the computer would pick you to get a hat.

No, I'm not just going to 'give up' because my favorite software developer made me (very very) angry. Everyone who is angry is trying to make a point.

Valve isn't the same as they were a year ago. They're pumping out updates like no tomorrow, which may be a nice change as opposed to the "Valve time" of yester-year, but apparently they don't test or tihnk through a damn thing.

The medic regen has been changed from 1-3 HP/s to 3-6 HP/s, but that's nerfed if you're using the Blutsauger, back down to 1-3 HP/s. So, in theory, the Blut just would have gotten STRONGER because it got crits back.

Well, no, they apparently didn't even test it and we had a day of combat medic rapeage where the Blutsauger had NO NERFS. So it was like the syringe gun, but gained 3 hp on hit and you gained 3 HP a second. What happened, Valve? I want my old software developer back.