A suggestion to expand subtypes to be more relevant. Any ideas for this are appreciated, though I doubt any would be used I think them interesting.
Idea 1: Expand subtypes to have preferred weapons so that they actually have an advantage when using what would be expected of them. This could take the form of increased collect rate, accuracy, or most likely damage. I myself believe it should be a +10 damage increase to attacks. Feel free to tell me if/how this is broken.
This would work something like the following
Target: Increase the accuracy of one gun attack per round
Preferred Weapon: Guns
Sword: Gain one free dodge if you attack twice with melee in a round
Preferred Weapon: Swords
Break: Once per round may give an attack the break effect.
Preferred Weapon:Either Bomb or Melee
Recovery: May convert attacks into recovery at 2 damage to 1 Recovery ratio.
Preferred Weapon: Recovery
Wind: May use gust effect once per turn
Preferred Weapon: 'Other' Chips or Traps and Counters
Normal: Hidden Power
Preferred Weapon: Chosen at creation
Idea 2: Create a series of Navicust that require certain subtypes or expand upon subtype powers
i.e.
Recovery Aid: Recovery subtype conversion ability now converts at a 3:4 ratio
Sword Boost: Sword subtype dodge ability now requires only one melee attack
you get the idea
Idea 3: Subtype only sig effects
any other ideas?
Subtypes
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Mmm...not really necessary.
The effects of Sub-types already have some advantages. If you haven't seen so, might want to check the rules section since I myself think the special effects for the sub-types are quite up to par.
The effects of Sub-types already have some advantages. If you haven't seen so, might want to check the rules section since I myself think the special effects for the sub-types are quite up to par.
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personaly...adding prefered weapon/chip types would make this more complex...so..no...just...no...
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So none of you think then that subtypes are relatively meaningless in actual practicality?
It would seem that I am the only one who dislikes that melee users aren't better with swords and that recovery isn't actually really better at recovery.
It would seem that I am the only one who dislikes that melee users aren't better with swords and that recovery isn't actually really better at recovery.
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I don't know if you remember, but the solid differences are what we USED to have. Another thing to consider: no matter how you work these differences, they're never going to pan out to a balance. Unless we spend forever working on it, sword chips and gun chips are never going to be just as useful. There's going to be significant differences based on availability, the quality of the available chips, etc. etc. Why accentuate these differences and issues by allowing people to exploit them from creation?
And, this is a personal thing, but I heavily dislike the idea of "preferred weapons" from creation. True, we expect that a sword Navi will want to use swords. But, as we saw when subtypes were first introduced, many cursor Navis are simply Navis that want to use very accurate weaponry, not gun users. Many break types want to be Navis designed to pinpoint weaknesses, not heavy smashing types that only do so with melee attacks. As a result, I think limiting their advantages to one weapon type is a big problem. Even if people chose not to use the weapon their type specialized in, they would be doing so almost at the cost of shooting themselves in the foot because of the bonus a normal player gets that they'd be denying for the sake of their character. And, since I think that I heard this weird argument in the past, I'll put it down now: please don't say they could just choose normal type and set their own preferred weapon if they didn't like any of the subtypes. There is no reason you should ever have to default to a subtype.
And, this is a personal thing, but I heavily dislike the idea of "preferred weapons" from creation. True, we expect that a sword Navi will want to use swords. But, as we saw when subtypes were first introduced, many cursor Navis are simply Navis that want to use very accurate weaponry, not gun users. Many break types want to be Navis designed to pinpoint weaknesses, not heavy smashing types that only do so with melee attacks. As a result, I think limiting their advantages to one weapon type is a big problem. Even if people chose not to use the weapon their type specialized in, they would be doing so almost at the cost of shooting themselves in the foot because of the bonus a normal player gets that they'd be denying for the sake of their character. And, since I think that I heard this weird argument in the past, I'll put it down now: please don't say they could just choose normal type and set their own preferred weapon if they didn't like any of the subtypes. There is no reason you should ever have to default to a subtype.
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Quote (RoboTek)
So none of you think then that subtypes are relatively meaningless in actual practicality?
It would seem that I am the only one who dislikes that melee users aren't better with swords and that recovery isn't actually really better at recovery.
Actually...they ARE. The sword subtype lets you dodge for free once per round if you do two melee attacks. That shows that they are 'better' at swordiness. The fact that the recovery navi can convert damage to healing power is, in itself, powerful. It's the only subtype that can do anything like that. I do however like the idea of having navicust programs that can add power to natural subtype abilities.
Sword: perhaps a +5 bonus to damage with sword attacks? (sword mastery)
Cursor: again, a bonus to damage would possibly be appropriate (gunslinger)
Break: extra break per round? (smasher)
Wind: perhaps a constant hovering ability? or the power to walk/run/stand on walls? (flippy the wonder dog)
Normal: perhaps a boost to hidden power. the normal adds 10 + 1/2 level rounded down to nearest 5. Perhaps the upgrade could be just 10+1/2 level. (pulling a gohan)
Recovery: An upgrade to the healing conversion rate would make sense here. Perhaps 3/4 conversion rate. Or the ability to specialize and convert full damage to healing on self or others. But at the cost of being able to heal the other kind as effectively. Example: Heal other specialist could heal others at full conversion, but self at only 1/4th rate. Heal self specialist could heal themself at full conversion, but others at only 1/4th.
(Doctor. or, Specialist)
The main problem I can see is balancing the navicust points to be used, as well as the recovery bonuses. Allowing only the 'healing other' specialist navicust would make sense. Because then you don't have a bunch of people who are making recovery subtypes so that they can run around being the invincible tank or something.
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I was actually thinking of something similar myself Robo, although nothing quite like what you've got here. The NaviCust idea seems alright, we're always looking for new ways to customize our characters after all, what you just need now are some balanced options. We tend not to touch the NaviCust system for fear of breaking the balance, although from what I understand that may be due to change any day now. Regardless, come up with something good there and it might get accepted. Recovery Aid and Sword Boost might be potential options, maybe, but then again I'm no expert on balance. Swordplay can only be done once per turn anyway, so there might be a market for Sword Boost. All the same, it's getting a free dodge for 1 attack, normally an action or a 40 point sig with cooldown, so it should cost a bit. I'd say something in the neighborhood of 10 to 15 points. An HP +100 costs 15 to equip, and a free dodge once every turn for one sword action doesn't seem too bad in comparison with that. Recovery Aid sounds pretty bad though. It might be acceptable, it might not.
I'm not sure if I like your first suggestion though. We've got enough balance as is with the chips and the + to damage seems a little unnecessary. Heat's explanation is kind of nice, I do like the fact that CrushMan isn't being forced into a niche since he's a Break type. I like that I can pick up a MagBolt and essentially he's as good with it as anybody else. And I also like the fact that he can infuse it so it can smash through walls. For me, as a Break, that's enough.
Something somewhat related to that that I was thinking about was what I started calling Talents. Easy enough to explain, for many I probably won't have to, but I'll do it all the same. Essentially, a Navi would start with a number of choices that would have permanent effects on the character. We'll take your earlier example, say I wanted CrushMan to fill a niche? I could take some kind of talent that increased toughness, or some such. Of course, it's all still being designed, and it might all be a bit too related to videogames to be acceptable at all, but I like the idea enough that I'm willing to work with it.
Finally, sig attacks that are affected by your type? That I like. Again, something I was planning on suggesting at some point myself. Currently, the only sigs affected by type are sigs that have the ability to do elemental damage, and again that's only type, not subtype. Stuff like Break types can get Break abilities cheaper, or sword types can make sword sigs stronger, those are all much more restricted than that first suggestion you had and are probably more likely to be acceptable. It's a shame you didn't put more effort into that, as honestly that's really the most interesting thing. Unfortunately, all I had planned that I could really add were my thoughts concerning the 'To All' clause, and I was operating under the notion that it had been modified to my specifications in that instance. Long story short, my data is irrelevant in this aspect.
So, write some stuff up on the viable options. Make some NaviCust options that aren't broken, fully develop them, and make some Sig Specials. Don't be too limiting, nobody is going to be happy if you try and pass something like only Break types can get the Break ability in signature attacks, but come up with something that's new and interesting, something like Break Specialization, this attack deals only affects certain defensive options, such as Guard, but instantly destroys the defense, bypasses it, and deals triple damage to the wielder, but is completely ineffective against all other defenses. Make it cost 40 sig points rather than the standard 20, and Break Specialization (Break Only): Shield might very well be a viable option in the future. (Granted, triple damage is huge, just looking for an example at the moment, heh.)
EDIT: Actually, Break Specialization sounds kind of awesome when I think about it. Typing up something on it for the Paly Sig thread.
I'm not sure if I like your first suggestion though. We've got enough balance as is with the chips and the + to damage seems a little unnecessary. Heat's explanation is kind of nice, I do like the fact that CrushMan isn't being forced into a niche since he's a Break type. I like that I can pick up a MagBolt and essentially he's as good with it as anybody else. And I also like the fact that he can infuse it so it can smash through walls. For me, as a Break, that's enough.
Something somewhat related to that that I was thinking about was what I started calling Talents. Easy enough to explain, for many I probably won't have to, but I'll do it all the same. Essentially, a Navi would start with a number of choices that would have permanent effects on the character. We'll take your earlier example, say I wanted CrushMan to fill a niche? I could take some kind of talent that increased toughness, or some such. Of course, it's all still being designed, and it might all be a bit too related to videogames to be acceptable at all, but I like the idea enough that I'm willing to work with it.
Finally, sig attacks that are affected by your type? That I like. Again, something I was planning on suggesting at some point myself. Currently, the only sigs affected by type are sigs that have the ability to do elemental damage, and again that's only type, not subtype. Stuff like Break types can get Break abilities cheaper, or sword types can make sword sigs stronger, those are all much more restricted than that first suggestion you had and are probably more likely to be acceptable. It's a shame you didn't put more effort into that, as honestly that's really the most interesting thing. Unfortunately, all I had planned that I could really add were my thoughts concerning the 'To All' clause, and I was operating under the notion that it had been modified to my specifications in that instance. Long story short, my data is irrelevant in this aspect.
So, write some stuff up on the viable options. Make some NaviCust options that aren't broken, fully develop them, and make some Sig Specials. Don't be too limiting, nobody is going to be happy if you try and pass something like only Break types can get the Break ability in signature attacks, but come up with something that's new and interesting, something like Break Specialization, this attack deals only affects certain defensive options, such as Guard, but instantly destroys the defense, bypasses it, and deals triple damage to the wielder, but is completely ineffective against all other defenses. Make it cost 40 sig points rather than the standard 20, and Break Specialization (Break Only): Shield might very well be a viable option in the future. (Granted, triple damage is huge, just looking for an example at the moment, heh.)
EDIT: Actually, Break Specialization sounds kind of awesome when I think about it. Typing up something on it for the Paly Sig thread.
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Yes, I like many of those ideas. My main problem was that it just meant so little for a subtype. I know that there are those who would probably agree with that considering there are those who have told me subtype crash would be something like a 10 point flaw.
It isn't that I want any one of these just that I want it to become more distinct. Right now I think Tom's ideas are the most interesting, though there probably would be alot of resistance to things like talents.
I'll design some Navicust and potential sig effects towards this end. It can be my project while I wait.
It isn't that I want any one of these just that I want it to become more distinct. Right now I think Tom's ideas are the most interesting, though there probably would be alot of resistance to things like talents.
I'll design some Navicust and potential sig effects towards this end. It can be my project while I wait.
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Eh... I can understand people who want subtypes to mean something, but I really really don't want them to become something that limits an options. For instance, the effect you came up for break specialization is really nifty as it is, but it's also very specific. Unless we make many specialized sig effects for each subtype, Navis of that subtype are going to be forced to use that option. There won't literally be anybody telling them they have to, of course. But there will always be the knowledge that you passed up the chance to do something that was made specifically for your Navi, and that by doing so you've abandoned suggested roots determined by your subtype. This doesn't make the prospect entirely useless, but it does suggest that it's pointless for people who choose their subtype based on character with a divergent plan and strongly hints that they're missing out if the specialized abilities are anything worth looking at. Additionally, each of these abilities would have to be something other sigs couldn't do in combination (lest they become blatant solid advantages due to subtype), which is becoming very hard to find with our expanded list.
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I will try to come up with a short list of counter-examples.
Example Sig effects:
Break:
30 Superbreak: Counts as an attack having both the break and impact effects.
10 Wild Attack: Increases damage by 20. Decreases accuracy by 1 rank.
30 Momentum: Gains temporary 50 health until end of turn.
Rage: 10 Gains 20 Health, loses 20 health next turn.
20 Point Nerf: This attack must have break added to it to work. Does not gain break by this.
Sword:
30 Parry: Free dodge against a melee attack with this attack.
1/4 damage dealt Cleave: If this attack kills the target it then hits the next closest target
I will add more later this is just a start.
Example Sig effects:
Break:
30 Superbreak: Counts as an attack having both the break and impact effects.
10 Wild Attack: Increases damage by 20. Decreases accuracy by 1 rank.
30 Momentum: Gains temporary 50 health until end of turn.
Rage: 10 Gains 20 Health, loses 20 health next turn.
20 Point Nerf: This attack must have break added to it to work. Does not gain break by this.
Sword:
30 Parry: Free dodge against a melee attack with this attack.
1/4 damage dealt Cleave: If this attack kills the target it then hits the next closest target
I will add more later this is just a start.
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I think Heat nailed it on the head why this should not be done like this. If we restrict them to one subtype, and make it unaccessible to the others, we are limiting their freedom. If the effects are nothing more than 2 effects sewn together at a discount price, we are simply giving an advantage >.>
The idea I have been pushing is levelups; simply make more (1/turn for free) abilities accessible after, I dunno, every round levels or something, possibly opening up other-type abilities at higher levels. This way there'd be more difference, but players would have some freedom too at choosing their path.
Just randomness though
The idea I have been pushing is levelups; simply make more (1/turn for free) abilities accessible after, I dunno, every round levels or something, possibly opening up other-type abilities at higher levels. This way there'd be more difference, but players would have some freedom too at choosing their path.
Just randomness though
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Well you don't have to use them, it is just giving the subtype access to other things. The transition doesn't seem that bad to me, though perhaps I am alone. The problem is, people here seem to be adverse to defining choices. I think that subtype should be one of them, though others sorely disagree. I view it as something that should be decided about your navi, not just some arbitrary aspect like appearance.
The only other thing I can see doing this at all is your idea of expanding their granted abilities as they level, but that still seems like someone would object. It is even less inflexibility in what you get.
The only other thing I can see doing this at all is your idea of expanding their granted abilities as they level, but that still seems like someone would object. It is even less inflexibility in what you get.