The Halo

Quote (Hiko)

If everybody I knew was VAC banned, that'd be around 100 people off of TF2. Just from -my- friends list. I have 200 friends (200 is the limit), and at least half idle or have idled.

So, that'd be 100 less whiny bastards who are butthurt that they fucked up, got called on it, and are now redirecting their rage about being caught fucking up at people who didn't fuck up? Oh no, whatever would the community do without them.

Also, I agree 100% with Drakim. I never really thought I'd see the day, but here it is. Expect hell to freeze over shortly

Quote (Drakim)

Quote (Knight)

Just for the record:

http://teamfortress.com/post.php?id=2787

Quote ()

Over the next few days we'll be removing all TF2 items that were earned using external idling applications. We're going to adopt a zero tolerance policy for external applications used to manipulate the persistent item system. Due to us not having a policy in place prior to today, this time we're only removing the items earned through cheating the system.

That pretty much settles that they changed policy, if nothing else. It's beyond me if this is possible without changing the ToS, but I think I can say with a good level of certainty that it isn't.

Retarded said of Vavle, but I guess they simply can't ban such a large part of their player base. But if you just read the various agreements you have to accept in order to play the game, it is clear as day that idling in a server is not cheating, using a voice chat program independent of TF2 is not cheating, but using a third party program which directly affects the game (by simulating it) is complete and utter cheating.

What I am so amazed about is that people aren't giving idlers more shit. Seriously, while you are there playing and earning weapons, they are simply logging in and standing there getting their weapons. Dumb enough. Oh wait, they made an app that makes this assholery easier. Why isn't the community exploding in rage against them? D: Is the community so easily bribed by the prospect of a free lunch?

Because everyone has gotten over it. We've all come to accept that wearing a halo just makes you an easier target and means you'll likely have some curseword floating over your head, and that it does nothing but make you look like an elitist.

And to Leon... most people who didn't idle didn't even know that the idler existed. Most people, when getting a halo, didn't grin in respect for Valve, thinking that it was what they deserved, but wondered what the eff was going on.

Hey, "whiny bastards" we may be in your eyes, but we're probably some of Valve's most loyal customers and most avid players.

Quote (Hiko)

Hey, "whiny bastards" we may be in your eyes, but we're probably some of Valve's most loyal customers and most avid players.

Do you think there is a single person in existence who seriously thought Valve approved of idling? Even one?

Personally, I have a hard time thinking of people who accepts the terms of agreement to an online game, breaks it, and then proceeds to whine over the punishment, a loyal fan of the game producers.

Quote (Drakim)

Quote (Hiko)

Hey, "whiny bastards" we may be in your eyes, but we're probably some of Valve's most loyal customers and most avid players.

Do you think there is a single person in existence who seriously thought Valve approved of idling? Even one?

Personally, I have a hard time thinking of people who accepts the terms of agreement to an online game, breaks it, and then proceeds to whine over the punishment, a loyal fan of the game producers.

I waited 2-3 months before I started using it. I tried it at first, and I thought it was sketchy. Then once my entire friends list started using it, I figured hey, what the hell. Hadn't heard anything else about it.

Well, to be honest, I'm not sure if I cared that much. Valve had already admitted that they'd screwed up with the drop system, so I thought they wouldn't really give a flying f*** if we (or f00l) found an intelligent way around the issue.

Also, do -you- read the ToS to every game you play? I sure as hell don't. Call me ignorant, but I'm pretty sure that that's not the norm.

Quote ()

What I am so amazed about is that people aren't giving idlers more shit. Seriously, while you are there playing and earning weapons, they are simply logging in and standing there getting their weapons. Dumb enough. Oh wait, they made an app that makes this assholery easier. Why isn't the community exploding in rage against them? D: Is the community so easily bribed by the prospect of a free lunch?

That was the scrubbiest paragraph I've read on these forums.

[quote=Hiko]

Quote (Hiko,Sep 14 2009)

Also, do -you- read the ToS to every game you play? I sure as hell don't. Call me ignorant, but I'm pretty sure that that's not the norm.

I would read them all, except 99% of them all say the exact same thing. And do you know what just about 99% of them say? Exactly what Drakim is explaining to you about third party programs.

[quote=Leon]

Quote (Hiko,Sep 14 2009)

Quote (Hiko,Sep 14 2009)

Also, do -you- read the ToS to every game you play? I sure as hell don't. Call me ignorant, but I'm pretty sure that that's not the norm.

I would read them all, except 99% of them all say the exact same thing. And do you know what just about 99% of them say? Exactly what Drakim is explaining to you about third party programs.

Mmhmm. So you don't read them either, lol.

No, I don't. When I first started using a computer I did, and now a days all of them say pretty much the same thing in more or less words: Use only as intended, we're not responsible if shit hits the fan, don't try to reverse engineer our product.

That idler program? Pretty sure that would count as something that was made by reverse engineering the client. Anyone who didn't have their head up their ass would be able to figure that out.

Also, I daresay that I have given valve more money than your tf2 buddies, because I play far more than one good, but not amazingly great, fps game.

Quote (Leon)

No, I don't. When I first started using a computer I did, and now a days all of them say pretty much the same thing in more or less words: Use only as intended, we're not responsible if shit hits the fan, don't try to reverse engineer our product.

That idler program? Pretty sure that would count as something that was made by reverse engineering the client. Anyone who didn't have their head up their ass would be able to figure that out.

Also, I daresay that I have given valve more money than your tf2 buddies, because I play far more than one good, but not amazingly great, fps game.

What is this, a dick-waving contest over who pays VALVe more money? :'D

Quote (Hiko)

I waited 2-3 months before I started using it. I tried it at first, and I thought it was sketchy. Then once my entire friends list started using it, I figured hey, what the hell. Hadn't heard anything else about it.

Well, to be honest, I'm not sure if I cared that much. Valve had already admitted that they'd screwed up with the drop system, so I thought they wouldn't really give a flying f*** if we (or f00l) found an intelligent way around the issue.

Also, do -you- read the ToS to every game you play? I sure as hell don't. Call me ignorant, but I'm pretty sure that that's not the norm.

I can understand people have different stories, and not everybody hopped on the "free items" bandwagon instantly. But, imagine if we were talking about aimbots here. Would you think it okay to use an aimbot if all your buddies did, and Valve hadn't said anything for a long while?

Personally, for me, it's as clear as day. I would be here calling it cheating even if Valve hadn't taken action. Idling gives people an unfair advantage. The idling application gives them an even greater advantage, and breaks the terms of service.


Lastly, I dearly hope you don't think that not reading the ToS means you don't have to obey it. Realize that by just spamming the next button and thinking "whatever", you are still subject to them, and if you break them without knowing all the blame goes on you for not knowing the rules. "I didn't know the law because I ignored it" is not a valid plea, no matter the norm. D:

Quote (Drakim)

Quote (Hiko)

I waited 2-3 months before I started using it. I tried it at first, and I thought it was sketchy. Then once my entire friends list started using it, I figured hey, what the hell. Hadn't heard anything else about it.

Well, to be honest, I'm not sure if I cared that much. Valve had already admitted that they'd screwed up with the drop system, so I thought they wouldn't really give a flying f*** if we (or f00l) found an intelligent way around the issue.

Also, do -you- read the ToS to every game you play? I sure as hell don't. Call me ignorant, but I'm pretty sure that that's not the norm.

I can understand people have different stories, and not everybody hopped on the "free items" bandwagon instantly. But, imagine if we were talking about aimbots here. Would you think it okay to use an aimbot if all your buddies did, and Valve hadn't said anything for a long while?

Personally, for me, it's as clear as day. I would be here calling it cheating even if Valve hadn't taken action. Idling gives people an unfair advantage. The idling application gives them an even greater advantage, and breaks the terms of service.


Lastly, I dearly hope you don't think that not reading the ToS means you don't have to obey it. Realize that by just spamming the next button and thinking "whatever", you are still subject to them, and if you break them without knowing all the blame goes on you for not knowing the rules. "I didn't know the law because I ignored it" is not a valid plea, no matter the norm. D:

You're probably right... but Valve takes immediate action on aimbots. It's pretty much a VAC ban for that sort of hacking as soon as you're caught with it. We had months and months of idling, hundreds of hours of the time, and they didn't seem to take action so I figured I didn't want to be left behind. Aimbots are obviously game-altering, even to those currently in the game, and the community will agree with the punishment given to the hacker. With idling, no one can really tell because the whole thing is messed up anyways, and you're not supposed to be able to tell the difference between achievement and initial weapons, and hats don't change a damn thing.

Also, I bought TF2 over two years ago. I don't even know where the ToS thing was there. Did they make me scroll through it, or?

Quote (Hiko)

You're probably right... but Valve takes immediate action on aimbots. It's pretty much a VAC ban for that sort of hacking as soon as you're caught with it. We had months and months of idling, hundreds of hours of the time, and they didn't seem to take action so I figured I didn't want to be left behind. Aimbots are obviously game-altering, even to those currently in the game, and the community will agree with the punishment given to the hacker. With idling, no one can really tell because the whole thing is messed up anyways, and you're not supposed to be able to tell the difference between achievement and initial weapons, and hats don't change a damn thing.

Also, I bought TF2 over two years ago. I don't even know where the ToS thing was there. Did they make me scroll through it, or?

Hm, but aimbots are common over many games. Nobody makes an online FPS and doesn't think about the possibility of cheating aimbots. It's the oldest cheat in the book.

Idling is a new, and very specific, sort of unfair advantage.

Still, I feel the comparison isn't far off. What if aimbots were completely unheard of, and aimbotter users used arguments like "come on, Valve hasn't said anything before now and the aimbot doesn't do anything you can't do manually with a mouse."

I agree that the new weapons are kinda screwed in balance (although I find myself switching back more and more for specific situations.) but surely two wrongs doesn't make a right. That's sounds too much like the aimbotters saying "aw, come on, the aiming system in this game is broken already".

Also, if you read Valve's TF2 blog, it explains pretty well why their system is so broken and why they aren't doing anything about it. To put it short, all the alernatives are even more broken. If the system based itself on anything else but playing time then nightmares would ensure. Valve has no way to verify the performance reported by third party servers. Basically, you could make a server that does nothing but report you constantly owning everybody and earning weapons. It's only (due to how steam works) your playing time that Valve can accurately monitor.

Personally, I don't think the current system is THAT terrible. It's a lot better than achievement based, where heavies would suddenly start meleeing while ubered to get that rare achievement. That actually happened to me and I sure was a pissed medic for the rest of the day :/

(This system is fair according to the ideology of the Joker in the Dark Knight. And you wouldn't argue with him, would you? :o)

Quote ()

Hm, but aimbots are common over many games. Nobody makes an online FPS and doesn't think about the possibility of cheating aimbots. It's the oldest cheat in the book.

Idling is a new, and very specific, sort of unfair advantage.

"Sort of unfair." made me lol. There is nothing unfair about idling as far as I'm concerned, but you are free to try and prove this isn't so.

Quote ()

Still, I feel the comparison isn't far off. What if aimbots were completely unheard of, and aimbotter users used arguments like "come on, Valve hasn't said anything before now and the aimbot doesn't do anything you can't do manually with a mouse."

Yes, yes it is very fucking far off. Aimbots remove a skill tested by the game (aiming... duh). Idle hax removes having to log in. Unless you are part of the WoW generation, I think you can see how being logged on is not a skill, and removing it does not make the game worse.

Aimbots are like steroids. Idling is like kreatin or something.

Quote ()

I agree that the new weapons are kinda screwed in balance (although I find myself switching back more and more for specific situations.) but surely two wrongs doesn't make a right. That's sounds too much like the aimbotters saying "aw, come on, the aiming system in this game is broken already".

However aiming isn't broken, and claiming so pretty much proves that you have room to improve. On the other hand, the unlock system is pretty much proven to be broken. Hell, that's your next paragraph.

Quote ()

Also, if you read Valve's TF2 blog, it explains pretty well why their system is so broken and why they aren't doing anything about it. To put it short, all the alernatives are even more broken.

3 random solutions:

3.) Timer based on time since registering, instead of being logged on. This eliminates idling since you don't need to idle to get new stuff.
2.) Achievements+Release everything at the same time. Although, there would be achievement grinding, but everyone would be grinding their favorites (what they are playing anyway), instead of grinding the new shit. Obviously, it's too late for this now.
1.) Just give out all the stuff without the need to grind. Unlocking in a competitive multiplayer shooter is retarded. If you want to show off your e-peen, achievements are still there for you.

There are dozens more, I bet.

Quote (Knight)

Unless you are part of the WoW generation, I think you can see how being logged on is not a skill, and removing it does not make the game worse.

Is to. You have to get past a bloody ice dragon everytime you log in. :x

Wow, quite an active argument. Too bad it's all over SILLY HATS IN A VIDEO GAME.
<.<
>.>
...

BONK!

It's about the PRINCIPLE.
<.<
>.>
...

MAGGOT!

Yes. The principle that you use the game as it was intended and designed, and not piss around with third party bullshit, regardless of whether or not you think a program that is simulating you doing something that you aren't is cheating.

End of argument. No really, that's the bottom line. Get over it.

Quote (Leon)

Yes. The principle that you use the game as it was intended and designed, and not piss around with third party bullshit, regardless of whether or not you think a program that is simulating you doing something that you aren't is cheating.

End of argument. No really, that's the bottom line. Get over it.

Basically a more articulate version of "/thread"
just because you say that your opinion is completely right and final doesn't mean it is so O:

Quote ()

Yes. The principle that you use the game as it was intended and designed, and not piss around with third party bullshit, regardless of whether or not you think a program that is simulating you doing something that you aren't is cheating.

Would have been true before WoW came out and made 3rd party interface modification not only legal but encouraged.

Would be true if you couldn't add skins, for example, which actually do change the game.

Would be true if you couldn't make/use macros.

Would be true if Valve didn't change it's policy 3 months after giving the green lights.

Would be true if the punishment wasn't sorted out retroactively.

Would be true if this achieved anything aside from bringing idle servers back and pissing off half the community. Hell, they even pissed me off and I've only played about twice on a friend's account.

It doesn't matter why they did what they did. What does matter is that the only thing they achieved by banning the idle app is bringing idle servers back, making people who already got the stuff they wanted idle again, pissing off half the member base and giving a goddamn hat (that is BTW buggy for spies) to the other half, most of which already quit before they had to idle, used achievement_idle,or don't give a damn about hats anyway.

Pretty much like shooting Santa for trespassing imo. You had the right, but that doesn't mean that it was a good idea.

Quote (Knight)

Quote ()

Yes. The principle that you use the game as it was intended and designed, and not piss around with third party bullshit, regardless of whether or not you think a program that is simulating you doing something that you aren't is cheating.

Would have been true before WoW came out and made 3rd party interface modification not only legal but encouraged.

Would be true if you couldn't add skins, for example, which actually do change the game.

Would be true if you couldn't make/use macros.

Would be true if Valve didn't change it's policy 3 months after giving the green lights.

Would be true if the punishment wasn't sorted out retroactively.

Would be true if this achieved anything aside from bringing idle servers back and pissing off half the community. Hell, they even pissed me off and I've only played about twice on a friend's account.

It doesn't matter why they did what they did. What does matter is that the only thing they achieved by banning the idle app is bringing idle servers back, making people who already got the stuff they wanted idle again, pissing off half the member base and giving a goddamn hat (that is BTW buggy for spies) to the other half, most of which already quit before they had to idle, used achievement_idle,or don't give a damn about hats anyway.

Pretty much like shooting Santa for trespassing imo. You had the right, but that doesn't mean that it was a good idea.

This. If we're going to use advanced 4chan lingo, that is ;D